Tongues

Victory,

Our belief that the gifts have ceased is really an entirely different subject than tongues. Feel free to start a new thread though. If you want to know what I believe you can do a search and you will find many threads where I have discussed all of these topics to death.

~Lorelei

 

Looking back on this post, this is one the major disagreements here. I don't believe that you can properly exegete from Scripture that the gift of tongues is ever for personal use. It was a gift that was given to the local church, as were all gifts. Tongues, just like every gift, was given to edify all the believers of the church, never just one believer (self-edification), or a personal prayer language.

In this same post you gave your exposition of 1Cor.13:8-13, stating that you believed "that which is perfect" referred to Christ. It is clear, however, that it cannot refer to Christ as the pronoun "that" is in the neuter gender. If it referred to Christ Paul would have used a pronoun of the masculine gender but he didn't. What would a pronoun in the neuter gender refer to? It would have to refer to the Word of God, of course. That is the context in which the passage is written.
DHK

 

Hi there Mr DHK

Wow!! What a dominant way of expressing your views.

May I mention, that God has created all kinds of personalities.

I see you are very pedantic. You like things to be simple and basic and plainly able to be understood.

Therefore God probably puts you through experiences which are understood by your person.

Perhaps another person who has a completely different nature to you will have different experiences.

I do not think we can underestimate how God works. He is a God of miracles.

Just because there are no big prophet-eating fish, firey furnace stokers or partings of seas, doesn't meant God cannot still do these things if He wishes.

What a simple little tiny thing for God to do for Singer. So easy, yet so profound. For him.


If I was you, Mr K, I would be on the lookout for an amazing, profoundly unreal, mind boggling experience God may yet put YOU through .... to help you lose your disbelief in other people experiences. You are a good man, I perceive. Yet you have this disbelief of any other experiences "out of the ordinary".


A small story:

A man, now passed on, was a devout christian. A wonderful family man, and showed a life of service to God, and thus to his neighbours.
I knew him. He was a "feet on the ground" type of man, a builder by trade.

He was old when his wife died. He was utterly bereft and lonely without her.
One day he was sitting at his kitchen table, feeling so alone, and knowing him, he would have had the Lord on his mind.

Suddenly he pricked up his ears .. and heard singing! It sounded like thousands upon thousands in a choir singing hymns! He looked around... out the window, onto the street, into his garden .... no singers anywhere.

Then he realised .... it was a choir from heaven, maybe the angels, singing to him in his sad sad hour of lonliness.

So he sat in a comfortable chair and just listened. For an hour maybe.

And so Mr K, can you believe that story?
Isn't it beautiful.

Is there a record of that somewhere in the Bible? I don't think so!!

I believe that man's story, because he showed the fruits of the spirit in abundance. Why shouldn't this faithful old man have this wonderful priviledge of angels singing to him?

We must NOT underestimate God and his mysterious ways!

I am sorry you feel so judgemental about this. Perhaps my above story and explanation may show you what I mean

Hmmmmm, sweeping statement .... has there been a survey done, and you have the results there?
Have you MET all the people?

I am in what many call a "cult" and yet I know God to my very own heart. There are many people who look ON our "cult" and sweep us all into one basket, to be tipped into hell.

On the other hand, guess what?????
Most of the members of the fellowship I worship God in .... THEY THINK WE ARE THE ONLY ONES SAVED ....... AND YOU, DHK, ARE NOT!!!!!! Now, HOW do you like THAT???

You don't like it, I KNOW!
You would be extremely indignant if one of my fellow members told you you were on sinking sand!

Most people would. In fact, every believer would! I don't blame them!

But, I do not think that Mr K, so please do not worry! I think you are a good man, and you love God and want to serve Him with everything you have. I love that in you.

God Bless You
CMF

 

Wow Mr K!

Just looked at your profile, and I see you are a minister!!!!

I took on a minister!

I'm just a nice little mom at home minding her own buisness.

I see we have our own strengths, my friend.

Me? I'm not brainy and clever ... but I can tell a real fruit from Gods spirit when I see it! Yes I can! You can't fool me!!

You .... are clever, intelligent and brilliant at Bible knowledge! I envy you ... thank you for all you share


CMF

 

Well Lorelei, I think you are right on the fact that we should stick to one point and discuss it thoroughly. But I dont think, I'm always the one that likes to go in 10 directions. Sometimes maybe but not always. Its hard to stay in One direction when your asked fifty questions.

So Lets You and I study. Lets start at Luke 11:13
shall we.


But first let me make a few assumptions. Unless it is not written out word for word in the bible you will believe something right?

God Bless

 

Hi all. On prophecy, the word in Greek is propheteuo. The word comes from two words, "pro" means "before" and and "phemi", which means "to speak". The literaly meaning then is simple "to speak before" and this fits the text in 1 Cor. 14 when Paul says it is better to prophecy. No one will convince me he was saying that it is better for people to predict the future then share the gospel. That is just plain silly. Because of this and other things I see the "perfect" that is coming is the "kingdom age". I do not believe the preaching/teaching gifts or the service gifts are gone. DHK does make a good argument for "perfect" being the Bible but I think the kingdom age fits better with the whole of the NT. Just as a side note, the word for "perfect" in Greek also means complete or mature. Things change if you insert one of those two words.

As for 1 Cor. 12:7. It means gifts are for the "church". Every Bible out there has translated it that way and the KJV uses withal because it was the language of the day. Paul was talking to a whole "church" of people not just one person. The word withal implies that gifts are for that whole "body".

We need to get our terms straight for proper understanding.

I made this point before and no one touched it. Singer, Victory, Brian, Spiritual gifts are given to us to use when WE want. We are in control of them and they are a part of us. If you three had the real gift of tongues, you could right now speak in any langauge you chose. You could go up to a German and share the gospel with him in his language. You would just know how to do that. It was a miraculous gift. That is why it was such an incredible sign for unbelieving Isreal. If you cannot do what I described, then you do not have the Biblical gift of tongues. You are all well meaning, and you are my friends in Christ. I really do not want to come across as putting you down. Take a step back, to a time when you didn't speak in tongues, and ask yourself if the experience is really making you serve others better. In Christ we are to die to our "self" desire and be a servant to all. I can't understand practising self-edification and picking up my cross and being a servant, the two just don't mix.

In Christian love,
Brian

[ February 19, 2003, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

Brian Speaking before is exactly what it means. But if you will check back a few pages I posted the definition from Strong’s.

propheteuo {prof-ate-yoo'-o}

1) to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict

a) to prophesy

b) with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God

c) to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation

d) to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels

No one will convince me of that either. Predicting the future is just taking an educated guess at what’s going to happen. But when God speaks he TELLS the future. And that is why it is better to prophesy. B/c you are speaking forth by a Divine Inspirer.

A Meteorologist can use Doppler Radar and tell us that Precipitation is coming our way and He can prophesy that it’s going to snow tomorrow. That’s not the kind of prophesy we are referring to. We are speaking of a prophesy of divine inspiration

It is better to Prophesy b/c it is a Red Letter event taking place. God is directly speaking through someone.

I’m saying this humbly but maybe no one touched it b/c no one agreed with it.

Brian, do you believe tongues are used just to break a language barrier?

Brian you seem to think there is something wrong with edifying yourself. Yes we are to submit our selves to God and to other people and be there for them and put our selves aside. (Apart from tongues) do you ever pray that God will meet a need in your life? Do you ever pray that God would do something for you? Is that wrong. There is nothing wrong with edifying your self as long as it does not become something that you do every breathing moment of your life.

Just a few examples of some things we do that edify ourselves.

</font>

• Reading the bible</font>
• Praying</font>
• Fasting</font>
• Worshiping</font>
• Praising</font>
• Seeking God</font>

Do you suggest we end these things? I would go as far as saying your answer would be no.

God bless

 

Ok, if we are going to focus on Luke 11 and whether or not we should ask for the Spirit we should probably start a new thread. This is thread is supposed to be about tongues. I know we were already off course, but there are many conversations taking place, and I am having trouble keeping up. So is that acceptable to you? My time is limited and being able to find this part of the conversation and not getting pulled other ways will help me devote the time needed.

As to your question, you should know the answer. Yes I will believe it IF the context suggests that it is so, if it can be backed up with other verifiable scriptures that do explicitly implicate that interpretation and if that interpretation doesn't specifically contradict other scriptures that are more clear.

In all fairness, maybe it isn't you that always gets side tracked, but it happens in about every conversation, so I am trying to avoid that from happening.

I will also say that if we get going in circles and points are not addressed biblically then I will leave the conversation. The Bible is clear that we are to avoid foolish arguments.

I want to ask you, are you willing to accept that there is context around verses either in text or implied that is not to be ignored? Are you going to accept factual context even if it is contradictory to your current doctrine? Are you willing to listen to what it has to say, not what you think it already means?

~Lorelei

 

Before I leave this thread, I would like closure on my question about where anyone asked for the Spirit in Acts. Can you admit that no one is recorded as having asked for the Spirit for themselves? You can either answer this here or there, it is relevant to the verse we will be focusing on.

You have stated that they did ask, yet admitted that the Bible doesn't explicitly say, so I am confused as to where you stand.

~Lorelei

 

Ok, if we are going to focus on Luke 11 and whether or not we should ask for the Spirit we should probably start a new thread. This is thread is supposed to be about tongues. I know we were already off course, but there are many conversations taking place, and I am having trouble keeping up. So is that acceptable to you? My time is limited and being able to find this part of the conversation and not getting pulled other ways will help me devote the time needed.

As to your question, you should know the answer. Yes I will believe it IF the context suggests that it is so, if it can be backed up with other verifiable scriptures that do explicitly implicate that interpretation and if that interpretation doesn't specifically contradict other scriptures that are more clear.

In all fairness, maybe it isn't you that always gets side tracked, but it happens in about every conversation, so I am trying to avoid that from happening.

I will also say that if we get going in circles and points are not addressed biblically then I will leave the conversation. The Bible is clear that we are to avoid foolish arguments.

I want to ask you, are you willing to accept that there is context around verses either in text or implied that is not to be ignored? Are you going to accept factual context even if it is contradictory to your current doctrine? Are you willing to listen to what it has to say, not what you think it already means?

~Lorelei </font>[/QUOTE]

It is

Might I also add "So Help me God" LOL....

I do... Its almost like we are getting married Lorelei

 

Lorelei, Here is where I stand. The book of Acts never mentions anything about us being "Born Again" (John 3:5). But you and I both know that "unless you are Born Again you cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven.

So just b/c it does not state it Word for word we can know with out a doubt that the people in the Book of Acts were Born again.

We know that Peter told all the believers on the Day of Pentecost to Repent. But no where in the book of Acts do we find recorded that anyone repented.

I know they asked for the Holy Ghost. I know they did b/c Jesus said that our Father would give it to them that Asked. Thats all the Scripture I need.

If I told you to jump out of a plane without a Parachut, would you? Your answer should be no.

Now... I want the exact verse and the exact scripture that says not to jump out of an air plane with out a parachut.

Thats the way you are making things to seem. But maybe its just me.

Godbless

 

No, So Help ME God! I am already married, so that just wouldn't be fittin'!


I will let you start the other thread.

~Lorelei

 

No, So Help ME God! I am already married, so that just wouldn't be fittin'!


I will let you start the other thread.

~Lorelei </font>[/QUOTE]LOL....Lets just say If i was not married and you were not married, would I have a small chance?

LOL, im just kidding you dont have answer that.........

 

(jumping up and down, waving arms)

Hey, guys? Guys?

I only have one question, and so far, I haven't seen an answer to it (may have missed in the pages and pages that have been written since I first posted it):

Let me word it like this: What are tongues for?

And I'll even couch it like this: I'd prefer the people arguing against tongues not answer this.

THANKS!

 

Tongues are for a sign for the unbeliever. But Don, is it a negative sign for the unbeliever or a positive one?

Once you answer that I will finish...

God bless

 

Singer,

Feel free to join us in the other thread. I am having trouble keeping up so separating all the topics is helpful to me. No offense in leaving, I promise.

Could you answer Don's question, I would like to see your definition of what tongues are for.

Thanks

~Lorelei