Tongues

[Briguy]

Oneness (Brian),
You may be thinking of the wrong meaning of the word prophecy. Prophecy, as interpreted from Greek, means "to speak before". Not before something happens but "in front of". When one prophecies to another they are proclaiming God's word, the gospel in particular, in front of one or others. Your question to L. is depended on the audience she would be speaking "in front of".
Hope that clears some confusion.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens upon salvation, if you are waiting for it, something is wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Was there something wrong with the Samaritians?

Oneness, not only have I already addressed this in this post, you and I have discussed this several times. You should already know the answer to this.

You quoted this verse proving what I believe that we get the Spirit once we believe.

John 7:37-39
38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
NIV

But why then didn't they already have the Spirit here since the apostles already believed?

The answer is in the next verse. Always in context.

John 7:39
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
NIV

The Samaritans had to wait in chapter 8 because God had not yet poured His Spirit out upon the Samaritans. Any samaritan that believed after that day was indeed given the promise in John 7:38, unless of course you want to suggest that Jesus was lying.

Oneness, you never want to address the significance of these instances, and until you do, you are making a mockery of God's Word.

~Lorelei </font>[/QUOTE]

You quoted this verse proving what I believe that we get the Spirit once we believe.

What verse would that be? Acts 8 or John 7?

But why then didn't they already have the Spirit here since the apostles already believed?

The answer is in the next verse. Always in context.

I was not speaking of the Apostles. I know whey they did not receive the Holy Ghost in John 7 38:39. I was speaking of the Samaritans. I was pointing out that the Samaritans believed but the Spirit had not fallen upon them yet. Was it b/c Jesus was not yet Glorified? NO, that happend long ago! Was it b/c the Spirit had not poured out on the Samaritans? You say Yes, I say No.

Who's right?

The Samaritans had to wait in chapter 8 because God had not yet poured His Spirit out upon the Samaritans. Any samaritan that believed after that day was indeed given the promise in John 7:38,

Oneness, you never want to address the significance of these instances, and until you do, you are making a mockery of God's Word.

Where was "The Samaritans had to wait in chapter 8 because God had not yet poured His Spirit out upon the Samaritans" in John 7:38-39. Jesus simply said "He that believs on my as the Scripture hath said Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".

It did not mention anything about having to have the spirit fall upon someone of a diffrent orgin for a prerequisite for the rest of that orgin to receive the Holy Ghost.

So what I could say is "the significance is that Once upon a time God had not poured His Spirit out upon me as soon as I believed".

THe fact of the matter is this. You say that once you Believe the Holy Ghost comes upon you, Well, the devils believe and tremble (James 2:19). Where is their salvation where is their Holy Ghost?

The fact still remains that the Samaritians had not received the Holy Ghost as soon as they believed. And if they did not that could mean that some of us may not as well.

Scripture, you want Scripture? Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

And when you ask him, He is going to give it to you. But do you get everything you ask God to give you right away? No, but when you do get it your going to know you got it. And we dont seek the proof either, God gives it.

God bless

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Oneness (Brian),
You may be thinking of the wrong meaning of the word prophecy. Prophecy, as interpreted from Greek, means "to speak before". Not before something happens but "in front of". When one prophecies to another they are proclaiming God's word, the gospel in particular, in front of one or others. Your question to L. is depended on the audience she would be speaking "in front of".
Hope that clears some confusion.

In Christ,
Brian

propheteuo {prof-ate-yoo'-o}

1) to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict

a) to prophesy

b) with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God

c) to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation

d) to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels

That is what I mean by prophesy.

 

[Singer]

Wasn't Corinthinans written by Paul after the ascension of Jesus ?

See 1 Cor 14:39,40

39). Covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40). Let all things be done decently and in order.

If these were suggestions by Paul and it was his intent to imply
that tongues and prophesies ceased, then would it not be said
that he also ''implied'' that decency and order would also cease.

Stands to reason.

Better yet, it appears that both verses were suggestions to be
followed as neither would cease until ''that which is perfect should
come". We do need a thread on "Perfect" or is there one that we
could refer to on here...?

Singer

 

[Lorelei]

Oneness,

If it isn't significant that this was the first time the Samaritans received the Holy Ghost then why didn't they do what you say we are to do and ask for it?

Why did they have to wait for Peter and John to do it?

Why did Peter and John pray for them to be baptized? I thought they had to ask.

Acts 8:14-17
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
NIV

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
Oneness,

If it isn't significant that this was the first time the Samaritans received the Holy Ghost then why didn't they do what you say we are to do and ask for it?

Why did they have to wait for Peter and John to do it?

Why did Peter and John pray for them to be baptized? I thought they had to ask.


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Acts 8:14-17
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
NIV

~Lorelei </font>[/QUOTE]

If it isn't significant that this was the first time the Samaritans received the Holy Ghost then why didn't they do what you say we are to do and ask for it?

Lorelei, I'm not saying everyone has to ask for it. I was just simply trying to point out that Some dont get the Holy Ghost as soon as they believe or saved as you guys put it.

We know this:

We are promised to receive the Holy Ghost if we believe as the Scripture hath said

Does that mean that we receive it directly upon believing? No, if it did than we know that the Apostles would have received it momentarily after Jesus was Glorified.

We know that the Samaritans would have received it upon believing. And we know that Johns the diciples would have received it the moment Jesus was Glorified.

Why did they have to wait for Peter and John to do it?

I dont know.

Why did Peter and John pray for them to be baptized? I thought they had to ask.

Could you let me know if you are speaking of water baptism of Spirit?

I was a little confused on what you were talking about. The text indicates that they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost.

Besides is'nt asking a part of prayer?

God bless

[ February 18, 2003, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[MEE]

Acts 8:14-17
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
NIV

~Lorelei


**Let's go on to verse 18-19

18) And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19) Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

**Just out of curiousity, what did Simon see or hear that made him disire to do the works of the apostles?

Could it be that when one receives the Holy Ghost that there is something to see and hear?

Acts 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:33) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Evidently, when one receives the Holy Ghost you are going to see and hear something.

Just something to think about,
MEE

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Lorelei, I'm not saying everyone has to ask for it.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Scripture, you want Scripture? Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

And when you ask him, He is going to give it to you.

So not everyone has to ask for it? Does anyone have to ask for it? Which is it? Do you ask or don't ask?

Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Why did they have to wait for Peter and John to do it?

I dont know.</font>[/QUOTE]

If you don't know, how can you blatantly disregard this was the first time that any Samaritan received the Holy Ghost? How can you disregard that fact that Peter, the holder of the keys to the kingdom of heaven was opening the doors for salvation from those that were considered unclean before?

If you don't know, then find out, for if this is an example of how we can get the Spirit after we believe then the fact that Peter and John HAD to be there is extremely significant.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Why did Peter and John pray for them to be baptized? I thought they had to ask.

Could you let me know if you are speaking of water baptism of Spirit? </font>[/QUOTE]

I thought the conversation and the text were speaking about spiritual baptism. I don't believe I ever mentioned water baptism.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
I was a little confused on what you were talking about. The text indicates that they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost.

Besides is'nt asking a part of prayer?

God bless

But can you lay your hands on me and pray for me to receive the Holy Spirit? Is that how it works?

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by MEE:
Evidently, when one receives the Holy Ghost you are going to see and hear something.

Just something to think about,
MEE

They saw and heard in their own languages, interesting indeed. There is no indication that those in Acts 8 didn't understand what they heard. Surely something to think about.

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
~Lorelei

So not everyone has to ask for it? Does anyone have to ask for it? Which is it? Do you ask or don't ask?

Lorelei I don’t know if everyone has to ask for it or not. I know some do. I asked, Did you? The Apostles did, The Samaritans did, It does not record that the Gentiles did. It does not record the John the Baptist’s disciples did.

Look I will be the first to admit that I don’t know every little detail about Gods word. Are you humble enough to say the same thing? But don’t mistake my humility for stupidity. Just b/c something is not recorded every time in the bible does not mean that it did not happen. I try to do a little bit more than take it at face value if you know what I mean. *Winks*

If you don't know, how can you blatantly disregard this was the first time that any Samaritan received the Holy Ghost?

Im not disregarding the fact that this was the first time the Samaritans had received the Holy Ghost. It really does not make a difference. The point is “did they receive the Holy Ghost as soon as they believed”? The Answer is No.

You have made it quite clear to us that you believe that the Holy Ghost comes as soon as you believe. Why would it matter if it was the first time the Samaritans received the Holy Ghost or not?. Did it matter with you the first time you received the Holy Ghost? Just b/c it was your first time did it come as a separate experience? Your answer is No. The only thing you say is a prerequisite for receiving the Holy Ghost is believing and even then you say the moment you believe you receive the Spirit of God. Regardless of whether or not it was the first time had no baring on the outcome.

Jesus said that you have to believe on him as the Scripture hath said to receive the Holy Ghost. And he never said anything about the first time it comes will be weird for the first 5000 people. You are almost making it out to be that if my fathers received the Holy Ghost by believing than it’s going to be different for me.

What do you believe? Do you believe that the Samaritans received the Holy Ghost as a separate experience apart from believing? If your answer is “No” than I urge you to restudy what scripture is saying.

How can you disregard that fact that Peter, the holder of the keys to the kingdom of heaven was opening the doors for salvation from those that were considered unclean before?

I’m not sure that the Samaritans were unclean. You might have to clear me up on this matter but God cleansed the unclean things in Chapter 10 of Acts.

 

[Don]

Why do I get the feeling that people just like to pick on Lorelei?

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Lorelei I don’t know if everyone has to ask for it or not. I know some do. I asked, Did you?

You are the one who believes this is a separate experience, is there no where in the Word of GOd that explains it to you so you know for sure? If not, then how do you know which way is right?

Do you have information not recorded in the Bible? There is no proof that these statements are true.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
The Apostles did,

Really, when and where? Chapter and verse please.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
The Samaritans did,

The scriptures we have been discussing were dealing with the fact that the Samaritans DID NOT ask for it, the apostles asked on their behalf.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
It does not record that the Gentiles did. It does not record the John the Baptist’s disciples did.

It doesn't record that any of them did.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Look I will be the first to admit that I don’t know every little detail about Gods word. Are you humble enough to say the same thing?

Here we go again, did you copy and paste this from previous threads?

The questions I am asking you are very important to the doctrine you are teaching. I don't know isn't good enough. If you don't know why this is then you can't know for sure if you are right in the rest of your doctrine. Sorry, that's how it works.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Why would it matter if it was the first time the Samaritans received the Holy Ghost or not?. Did it matter with you the first time you received the Holy Ghost?

There are two parts of the Bible. The Old and New Testament. Testament means covenant. The New Testament is about our NEW covenant. The book of Acts shows us how this NEW covenant came to be. Only those alive at the time this NEW covenant came about experienced all these things. The Old is past and the new came, but it came as God determined and you can't make doctrine out of the examples in Acts because they were showing us how the OLD covenant with Isreal was now expanded to include Both mixed Jews and Gentiles. No two experiences in Acts were identical and it isn't up to us to pick and choose which ones we want to use and which ones we don't. We have to look at why they were different and what the significance of each experience was.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
I’m not sure that the Samaritans were unclean. You might have to clear me up on this matter but God cleansed the unclean things in Chapter 10 of Acts.

Does chapter 10 come before or after chapter 8?

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Don:
Why do I get the feeling that people just like to pick on Lorelei?

I have theories to why this is so, but I think this was a rhetorical question, so I will leave it at that.

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:


~Lorelei

You are the one who believes this is a separate experience, is there no where in the Word of GOd that explains it to you so you know for sure? If not, then how do you know which way is right?

Do you have information not recorded in the Bible? There is no proof that these statements are true.

Has God ever given you something you did not ask for? Luke 11:13 says that our Father will give us the Holy Spirit if we ask for it. Does it say that or not? I cant change what the Word of God proclaims.

Yes I do believe it is a separate experience. Why? B/c everyone in the bible received it as a Separate experience. Lets just look at some examples.
</font>

• The Apostles: We know that Jesus told them that they would receive the Holy Ghost if they believed on him as the scripture hath said after he was Glorified. We know that he was Glorified before the Apostles received the Holy Ghost. We know that the Apostles believed, and we know that the Holy Ghost came as a separate experience. (The Gospels and Acts 2)</font>
• The Samaritans: We know they believed (Acts 8:12). We know that the Holy Ghost fell on them as a separate experience (Acts 8:14-17)</font>
• The Gentiles: We know that Cornelius believed in God, we know that he was a devout man, he feared God and gave alms to the poor, we know he prayed. He was a believer (Acts 10:1-4). But God still had more for him to do (Acts 10:5-6). They heard about Christ, evidently they believed in Jesus. The Holy Ghost came on them as a separate experience (Acts 10:44-48)</font>
• Johns disciples: We know they were followers of John so they had to believe in Jesus b/c that’s all that Johns ministry was about (Acts 19:1-3) We also know they believed b/c Paul said “Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE ye Believed (Acts 19:2). Paul went on to ask them a few other questions and they received the Holy Ghost as a Separate Experience apart from believing (Acts 19:4-6)</font>

Do you have information not recorded in the Bible? There is no proof that these statements are true.

What proof do you want? What are you looking for? I have shown you where Luke says we must Ask for the Holy Ghost (Luke 11:13). And I have given you scripture that really does not say if they asked for it or not (Acts 10:44-48).

Lorelei, I’m not saying that you are “DEAD WRONG”. I’m simply showing you what the bible says. Again, Did Jesus say that Our Father would give us the Holy Ghost if we Asked for it? Yes! That’s Jesus saying that, Not me.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
The Apostles did,

Really, when and where? Chapter and verse please.</font>[/QUOTE]First of all Jesus said in Luke 24:49 to go to Jerusalem and he would send the promise of the Father (which is the Holy Ghost Acts 1:5 ) and to wait until they were endued with power from on high. We know that Jesus told them to wait for the promise of the Father (Acts 1:4) We know they went to Jerusalem and went to the temple and praised and blessed God (Luke 24:52-53). We know that the went to the upper room and prayed (Acts 1:12-14)


So....When: Day of Pentecost. Where: Jerusalem, in the upper Room. Chapter and verse: Given above.

Godbless

 

[Victory Leader]

Lorelei wrote,

It's obvious you are intimitated by the fact that a woman is pointing out your mistakes. The Bible says that women are to be silent in the church, not that they are never allowed to speak. This is not church, it is a place for discussion.

I am in no way intimidated by women. My pastor is a woman, and a woman of God at that.


I see that you guys are using 1 Cor. 13:8 to try and prove your stand. What about discernment? I believe that it is a gift of the Spirit for the church today. You must believe that it has ceased since it is in fact a sign. This is how one tries the Spirits also.
When Paul speaks of that which is perfect He is not referring to any NT that would come later. No where can you find that I know of that Paul knew that there would be a record or compiling of all his and the other NT writer's writings. That which is perfect is the church. She is to be perfect and when she has made herself ready then these things will cease for they will not be needed. The gifts of the Spirit were given to help build the church and to help the church function through all ages. The church is commanded to go on unto perfection. Perfection is a main theme of the NT. We were apprehended by Christ for such. Jesus said be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. He will not return for His bride until she has made herself ready/perfect. This will encompass the full gospel being preached to all nations and even every creature. This will also include every sheep of God reaching personal perfection/maturity. Then and only then will there be no need for the gifts.

On another subject ... Let's look at these Scriptures.
"Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry."

I believe that this shows a three fold process in which one receives the finality of the filling of the Holy Ghost. I can walk you through the Scriptures where the disciples fulfilled this process. What are your takes?

 

[Singer]

Victory Leader I commend you for a good presentation of
what it means re: "when perfect is come". It has been speculated
to be Jesus also. Either way the gifts are necessary until some yet
future date. Church fits well also.

Prophesy is said to cease when "that which is perfect has come"...
Critics say the gifts are not for today (including tongues).
Briguy described prophesy to mean to stand up to preach
" in front of." I'm sure no one expects preaching to be done away
with along with discernment and tongues.

Oneness: You did excellent work in depicting the
scriptures that show the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a
separate work. I cannot deny that the bible says no one
can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit, so
there is room to accept that the Spirit is working in us at
that time and at the time of salvation. I cannot also deny
that there is yet another work to be done in us and it is
the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I prayed over those same verses you quoted prior to my baptism of
the Holy Spirit.

For those not in the know; This is NOT WATER BAPTISM that we
are talking about.

There is something more......Seek it, ask for it and you will receive it :

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but
he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not
worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire

Singer

 

[ONENESS]

Lorelei, If you are anything like me I know that you probably are taking a break from the board for the rest of the day. Hope you get it...

Ummm when ever you see this feel free to answer.

I was just wanting you to check out my first question and answer it if you would.

I was simply asking if you believe that the tongues that were spoken on the day of Pentecost were given to break a language barrier? Just take your time, I know that you are busy.

And also about my other question about Women prophesying. I know you said that they should not prophesy in church but what about at all? Do you believe that women should prophesy at all?

God bless

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Has God ever given you something you did not ask for? Luke 11:13 says that our Father will give us the Holy Spirit if we ask for it. Does it say that or not? I cant change what the Word of God proclaims.

So if it says it why don't we hear anyone asking for it in Acts?

Originally posted by ONENESS:
[*]The Apostles: We know that Jesus told them that they would receive the Holy Ghost if they believed on him as the scripture hath said after he was Glorified. We know that he was Glorified before the Apostles received the Holy Ghost. We know that the Apostles believed, and we know that the Holy Ghost came as a separate experience. (The Gospels and Acts 2)

And we know they waited because they were instructed to wait. Were you instructed to wait?

Originally posted by ONENESS:
[*]The Samaritans: We know they believed (Acts 8:12). We know that the Holy Ghost fell on them as a separate experience (Acts 8:14-17)

Discussed it above and you still haven't answered why Peter and John HAD to be there.

Originally posted by ONENESS:

[*]The Gentiles: We know that Cornelius believed in God, we know that he was a devout man, he feared God and gave alms to the poor, we know he prayed. He was a believer (Acts 10:1-4).

Now do tell me that name again that you say is all important in baptizing? Isn't it important in believing too?

Acts 10:43-44
43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
NIV

They heard what saved and THEN they received the Holy Spirit, without asking, how about that?

Originally posted by ONENESS:
[*]Johns disciples:

It's been discussed they weren't already saved, see above post.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
What proof do you want? What are you looking for? I have shown you where Luke says we must Ask for the Holy Ghost (Luke 11:13). And I have given you scripture that really does not say if they asked for it or not (Acts 10:44-48).

When you ask for Christ, isn't that asking for the Holy Ghost? Don't you believe they are the same?

The fact that no one "prayed for" or "sought" the Holy Spirit baptism as you and Singer have suggested we must do, is proof to me there is something wrong with your teaching. You admit the scriptures really don't say.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Lorelei, I’m not saying that you are “DEAD WRONG”. I’m simply showing you what the bible says.

No, you are telling me what you think it means and ignoring the facts that surround the passages.

Originally posted by ONENESS:

Again, Did Jesus say that Our Father would give us the Holy Ghost if we Asked for it? Yes! That’s Jesus saying that, Not me.

Yes and when you believe in Christ and ask Him to save you, it's there!

Originally posted by ONENESS:
The Apostles did
Really, when and where? Chapter and verse please

First of all Jesus said in Luke 24:49 to go to Jerusalem and he would send the promise of the Father (which is the Holy Ghost Acts 1:5 ) and to wait until they were endued with power from on high. We know that Jesus told them to wait for the promise of the Father (Acts 1:4) We know they went to Jerusalem and went to the temple and praised and blessed God (Luke 24:52-53). We know that the went to the upper room and prayed (Acts 1:12-14)

But no where does it say THEY ASKED! You didn't quote one scripture, you had to write this paragraph of explanation because no verse says what you claimed! You can not PROVE they ASKED for it. If you can, then please quote the words where they said it.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
So....When: Day of Pentecost. Where: Jerusalem, in the upper Room. Chapter and verse: Given above.

Godbless

Yes, on the day of pentecost when they were in Jerusalem in the upper room did they ask or not?

~Lorelei

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Singer:

(Singer)
[QB]

Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Consinder how vulnerable your faith in your own salvation is.

(2 Tim 1:12 KJV) for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

(John 5:24 KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 5:11-13
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

My faith is not vulnerable. My salvation is not vulnerable. I know whom I have believed. My sins are underneath the blood of Christ: past, present, and future, never to be remembered any more. They are buried in the depths of the deepest sea. As far as the east is from the west so far has He removed them. He has given me the gift of eternal life. He is not a liar and will never take it back again. He has forgive all my sins. "There is therefore now no condemnnation in Christ Jesus." None at all. Is my faith or salvation vulnerable. NO! The reason--It is anchored in God's Word and not in experience.

Could Satan counterfeit that also. Maybe you should be afraid for yourself
in that respect. How do you know you are not given a fake and that your complacency is a fraud...?

Are you omniscient like God, making yourself a god? Otherwise how would you know anything about me, whether I am "complacent" or not? Or is that just a false accusation or slanderous remark. Please be careful what you say.
Let me aske you:
Does the spirit that dwells in you bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God? Yes or no? How do you know?

Rom.8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
--I know I am saved because of the witness of the Spirit of God working in me since the day of my salvation, not because of the experiences that I have had.
I know I am saved because my life is founded upon the solid rock of Jesus Christ, who is revealed to me in the Word of God, not through ecstatic experienes such as tongues, visions, dreams, etc.

My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame but wholly lean on Jesus name.
On Christ the solid rock I stand all other ground is sinking sand.

Charismatics like yourself are standing on sinking sand.

Compare that to the circumstances and the faith those of us have in the experience of self edification through praying in the spirit with tongues involved. It's the same faith is is not?

"in the experience of self-edification"
"It's the same faith is it not?"

No it is not the same faith. The faith of Christ is one that lives for Christ, and for others, not for self. Christianity by its very nature selfless, not selfish. You have a selfish faith. It centers around you, around self, for self-edificatioin. It is carnal, not spiritual. What did Paul mean by these verses:

Gal.2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1Cor.15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Rom.12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

And what did Jesus mean when He said in Mark 8:
34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

He did not create you to live for self. (self-edification??)

(Singer)

Agreed the bible is not clear on that. But.........that makes
the pro-tongues side on equal standing. The same is said
for salvation....
1. When does it occur?
2. Do we receive the baptism of the H.S. at that time?
3. Do we know we have it?
4. What does ''accepting the Lord" mean
5. "Accept the Lord" doesn't even appear in the bible
6. Could a person be saved and be wrong about tongues ?
7. SDA, Catholics etc do not believe they can know that
they are saved. They say that claiming that is of the
Devil. (Putting words in God's mouth). Sad .

The pro-tongues side is never on equal footing with the Word of God, because it is not Biblical.

1. When does salvation occur? It occurs the minute you trust Christ to take the punishment for your sins and become your Saviour.

2. At that time, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and baptized into his family, adopted as his child, sealed with His spirit. These are some of the many blessings He gives us.

Rom.8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

3. How do we know we have it?

1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
--Either you have the Son or you do not. There is no inbetween.

Rom.10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
--Does whosoever include you? Have you called upon his name? Does God keep his promises?

Rom.10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
--Is your belief from your heart?

4. What does accepting the Lord mean?
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Accepting is another synonym for "receiving." The Bible says to Reveive Him. Receive Him and you will become a child of God, by believing on His name. God's gift is eternal life. I need to receive it by faith. That means I cannot work for it; it must be received, accepted as a gift. Believing in Jesus is the same way. I accept Him as my Saviour. I receive His gift of eternal life for I receive Him.

5. "Accept the Lord doesn't even appear in the Bible" See above. "Receive" does. Receive the Lord.

6. "Could a person be saved and wrong about tongues?"
Yes, Tongues do not save or condemn, but it does confuse. For many if not most people it is an emotional experience. The person may or may not be saved. It depends what he is trusting: Christ or his experiece. There is a danger that tongues can lead to either demon oppression (for a believer) or demon possession (in a unbeliever). Many people have been deceived by the issue of tongues.

"7. . SDA, Catholics etc do not believe they can know that they are saved. They say that claiming that is of the Devil. (Putting words in God's mouth)."

Most SDA's and Catholics are not saved. Their theology is a theology primarily of works, and not of grace (despite the objections that I will run into on this board by making this statement).
You can only go to Heaven on God's grace, not your own merit, by faith and faith alone.
DHK

 

[Lorelei]

Oneness,

We have had too many fruitless discussions. You always try to go 10 directions at once. Stick to one point and let us actually discuss it thoroughly before we move on.

~Lorelei