Tongues

[Victory Leader]

The word quiver is not here and the word quicken means to give life, not to shake uncontrollably. So tell me how this verse is even relevant, or share with me others that you have that are.

Quicken does mean to give life. Life is given to the body or parts of it by the Spirit. My body didn't quiver on my accord but by the Spirits. He gave life to it. Until you can see that the word quicken is just that then more scriptures will be pointless.

So you do admit then that tongues are real earthly languages?

Absolutely! I don't have a problem accepting that. It's just that when I've been moved on by the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues it was a language that was strange to me.

I have already stated in this thread that no one received a Holy Spirit baptism after belief once their nationality received the promised Spirit for the first time. No where after Pentecost did a Jew believe first and later receive the Spirit, it just didn't happen.

Wrong! Acts the 18th and 19th chapters gives the account of Apollos. He was already a believer but had not heard whether there be any Holy Ghost or Holy Guest one might say.

I am not confused about what tongues are. What I am confused about is how you try to justify tongues by using Acts 2 as an example and then try to justify speaking in an unknown tongue around me. Wouldn't I hear it in my own English language anyway, that wouldn't sound like a unknown tongue to me, now would it?

Do you speak in tongues around other people who speak your language, and if so, then why don't they hear you speaking in their own language?

You other post had many points that need to be corrected, but if we don't focus on them one at a time the truth will be lost in all the spin. So please address the issues that are presented then we can move on.

I don't rely on just Acts 2. I use the whole Bible rightly divided to sum up what the Lord is saying.

Yes, Everyone around me speaks my language. Where in the Bible does it say that when Peter spoke in tongues at Pentecost that the Apostle John heard Peter in his own language? Or how about Thomas?
Did he hear Peter in his native tongue? How about Apollos? The word doesn't say that everyone around him when he spoke in tongues understood what he said. The same goes with Cornelius and his family and friends. No where does the Bible say that others heard them in their language. You have failed to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

As far as my other posts having other points that needed to be corrected. Please show me, but you'll have to use Scripture to show me anything. Good day!

 

[Don]

The word quiver is not here and the word quicken means to give life, not to shake uncontrollably. So tell me how this verse is even relevant, or share with me others that you have that are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quicken does mean to give life. Life is given to the body or parts of it by the Spirit. My body didn't quiver on my accord but by the Spirits. He gave life to it. Until you can see that the word quicken is just that then more scriptures will be pointless.

That is the worst case of putting a meaning into scripture I have ever witnessed. Almost as bad as those guys in Denver that say Romans 12:9 "Abhor that which is evil" means we can hate homosexuals....

Please, by all means, show us the other scriptures that support "quivering."

Victory, I ask again: If tongues are a sign for unbelievers, and you didn't receive the gift of tongues until a full year after you were saved, why did you need the sign?

 

[Victory Leader]

DHK, are these the questions you are referring to?

If you were speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit you would not possibly be calling Jesus Christ accursed (which apparently was happening by some of those speaking in another tongue, although they may not have realized it themselves).
For all of you that speak in tongues how do you know who you are praising? How can you guarantee that you are praising God and not the devil? Satan is the greatest of all imitators. He can imitate almost any experience you may think of. How do you know that what you have is of God? Do you base your experience on “experience” alone, or do you base it on the Word of God? Is it possible that you too have been deceived like some of the early Corinthians?
More to come.

1. I never said that I speak in tongues to praise God. I speak in tongues as the SPirit gives the utterance. I don't know any other language well enough to start spitting out words. I wouldn't dare speak without God telling me to.

2. The same way you would say that you can guarantee that you are serving God and not the devil. It's by faith my friend.

3.Satan is a great imitator but there must be a real thing before it can be imitated. If tongues had ceased then the devil would have no need to imitate. The devil would not ask me to do some of the things God has had me do and the devil would not and does not appreciate the way i live my life and the Gospel that I preach. Satan hates me. LOL! I'm an old Batist boy, it took the real thing to convince me.

4. I tried the Spirits and dilegently studied the Word of God. It all worked together. The Word of God is what moved me to tarry for the promise.

5. I am not deceived about the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Some people are, some people on both sides of the fence. Some reject the Word of Truth and others reject the Spirit of Truth, which work together. I don't see where the Corinthians were what you call deceived. Some of them needed some instruction and some of them were not even Christians so if they were speaking in tongues then it was not by the Spirit. Paul never forbade them to speak in tongues.

I'm not afraid of any questions. I have not ignored yours just didn't see them. God Bless!

 

[Victory Leader]

Speaking in Tongues
Speaking in tongues is the Biblical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. When Jesus was instructing His disciples about the promised coming of the Holy Ghost, He told them, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify [speak] of me" (John 15:26). His followers received this promise on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2:4 specifically states: "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

When the gospel message was first preached to the Gentiles by Simon Peter, they received the message given them, and they spake with tongues (Acts, chapter 10).

The Apostle Paul found "certain disciples" of John the Baptist in the city of Ephesus, and he asked them if they had received the Holy Ghost since they had believed. They responded by saying that they had not even heard if there be any Holy Ghost. Paul laid his hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost and spake with tongues (Acts 19:1-7).

From these scriptural accounts we can see: (1) that the Holy Ghost was promised by Christ; (2) that when the Holy Ghost came, He would testify of Christ; (3) that the initial outpouring of the Holy Ghost upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost was accompanied by the evidence of speaking with tongues; (4) that when the Gentiles received the gospel message and accepted the baptism of the Holy Ghost, they spoke with tongues; and (5) that people under the ministry of Paul spoke with tongues.

Speaking in tongues is also a prayer and praise language of the Spirit-filled believer as he worships and prays under the Spirit's anointing and influence.

For many years, the baptism of the Holy Ghost was frowned upon by the "formal" churches. But eventually, something strange began to take place. Many saints of God in these "formal" churches began to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues. This was according to the prophecy of Joel, who said, "I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh" (Joel 2:28).

It soon became widely acceptable to identify with tongues-speaking. Satan seemed to be defeated, for the saints of God, far and wide, were opening their hearts to this wonderful experience. Not being able to stop this message, Satan began to offer a counterfeit. Many "ministers" began to teach people contrary to the Bible pattern of speaking in tongues, "as the Spirit gave them utterance." They led people to believe that one could repeat phrases or unintelligible sounds, and convinced them that they had received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. But, it doesn't work that way, my friend. When you are baptized with the Holy Ghost, your whole being is affected.

Speaking in tongues is the initial biblical evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost. One can have it no other way.

 

[DHK]

1 Cor.13:8-13
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
--Notice in 1Cor.12:1, quoted above, that Paul does not want the Corinthians to be ignorant or unknowledgeable about spiritual gifts. From here he devotes the next three chapters (12,13 and 14) to the subject—the abuse of spiritual gifts in the Corinthian Church. The gifts are listed in chapter 12 and how they operate in the context of the body of the local church is emphasized. Near the end of the chapter they are listed again in order of importance with tongues being at the very end of the list as the least important of all the gifts. Then Paul says that he shows us a better way than all the gifts put together, and that is the way of love, discussed in chapter 13, but primarily in the first seven verses. From verses 8-13 the immediate context is revelation within the scope of spiritual gifts once again, especially the spiritual gifts that have to do with revelation. They are contrasted and compared to love, the greatest of all gifts.

Love never fails. The greatest of all the gifts is love. Love is the one gift that is permanent. There are three categories of gifts: permanent, semi-permanent, and temporary. Love is the only permanent gift. It alone will abide forever (13:13).
There are two semi-permanent gifts: faith and hope.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
How long will these two gifts last?
Consider Faith. 2Cor.5:7 says “For we walk by faith, not by sight.”
When we see Jesus we no longer will need faith.
Heb.11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith is only needed for things that we do not see. When we get to Heaven and see Jesus we no longer will need faith. Therefore faith is a semi-permanent gift. It will be done away with when Jesus comes for His own.

Likewise, the same is true for hope. Our hope is in the Lord.
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
--We look for our Hope, Jesus Christ.
Rom.8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
--We are saved by hope. If we can see what we hope for then we don’t need hope, Paul says. When Christ comes, we no longer will need hope. The gift of hope will cease at the time of Christ’s coming. It is a semi-permanent gift.

Love is permanent. Faith and hope are semi-permanent.

Now consider verse eight:
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--prophecies shall fail, tongues shall cease, and revelatory knowledge shall vanish away.
These are the temporary sign gifts that deal with revelation that are temporary and are contrasted to the semi-permanent and permanent gifts already mentioned.

It says that they will fail, cease, vanish away. They are temporary. The question is when will they all cease?

Verse 9: For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
--Again, the context is revelation. Spiritual gifts in the context of revelation. Paul says we know in part and we prophesy in part. We know in part. We have only part of the revelation of God’s Word. The Corinthian Church had the Old Testament. They may even have had Matthew and James, two of the earliest books that were written. Beyond that there was not much else of the Word of God written down. They knew in part. Thus God gave them these gifts until the canon of Scripture would be complete: prophecy, tongues, revelatory knowledge. They knew in part. They had part of the entire Word of God, and the prophesied in part. The gift of prophecy was the primary gift used to teach and make up the deficiency until the rest of the New Testament was complete. Chapter 14 shows the superiority of the gift of prophecy over that of tongues.


Verse 10: “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”
-- “But when that which is perfect is come:” The word “that” in the Greek is in the neuter tense. If it were to refer to Christ it would be in the masculine tense but it is not. It cannot possibly refer to Christ because it is not a masculine pronoun. It is a neuter pronoun that refers to none other than the perfect Word of God. When that which is perfect (which also has the meaning of complete), then that which is in part (prophecy, tongues, revelatory knowledge) will be done away. Knowledge here is not common knowledge but special revelatory knowledge, like a word of knowledge, or the knowledge a prophet would receive, knowledge revealed from God. Common knowledge of course will never cease; that is an impossibility. This was a special sign gift.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
--James refers to God’s Word as the perfect law of liberty. It is perfect. He also refers to it as a mirror, in the same context.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
--God’s word is perfect, converting the soul.
We have a perfect Word of God. It became complete near the end of the first century when the Book of revelation was finished. It was then that these sign gifts ceased and went out of existence, as also history verifies. It was not until the beginning of the 20th century that the modern day tongues movement began. For 1800 years people did not speak in tongues unless it was the odd heretical group here and there.
DHK

 

[Victory Leader]

Don wrote,

Victory, I ask again: If tongues are a sign for unbelievers, and you didn't receive the gift of tongues until a full year after you were saved, why did you need the sign?

I never said I needed tongues to believe. The Holy Ghost used tongues to prove that He was now indwelling in me, His temple. He was testifying. If you haven't spoke in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance then you haven't been filled with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Singer]

Commentary from : http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1045537612-6785.html

1 Cor Ch. 13

v. 10 Most Greek scholars agree that "that which is perfect" refers to the
coming of Jesus Christ. Some say that this refers to the full revelation of the
Bible, but the context doesn't bear this out. The gifts of the Spirit
are helpful and should be in operation until Christ returns (Acts 2:16-20).


1 Cor 14:4 "v. 4 When the Holy Spirit edifies us. He builds up Christ in us.
The Holy Spirit helps us to praise God without the limitations of
our intellect. He also helps us to pray for things according to
God's will and to intercede in a situation when we're not sure how
to pray. Prophecy builds up Christ in the whole Church.

v. 13 This verse doesn't apply to our personal prayer lives, but to those times
when we might be in a group and pray in tongues.

***************************************************************
(Singer)
There is a personal prayer use of tongues and one that is for
public use and in my case one that accompanied the baptism
of the Holy Spirit that I've never used again. It's been 24 years.
It was definitely for my edification.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
DHK, are these the questions you are referring to?

Yes you ought to consider them.

If you were speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit you would not possibly be calling Jesus Christ accursed (which apparently was happening by some of those speaking in another tongue, although they may not have realized it themselves).
For all of you that speak in tongues how do you know who you are praising? How can you guarantee that you are praising God and not the devil? Satan is the greatest of all imitators. He can imitate almost any experience you may think of. How do you know that what you have is of God? Do you base your experience on “experience” alone, or do you base it on the Word of God? Is it possible that you too have been deceived like some of the early Corinthians?
More to come.

1. I never said that I speak in tongues to praise God. I speak in tongues as the SPirit gives the utterance. I don't know any other language well enough to start spitting out words. I wouldn't dare speak without God telling me to.

Is it the Holy Spirit that gives you utterance? How do you know? Can you prove this? What evidence can you give that it is not another spirit that it is giving you the power to utter these things, and that things that you utter are not blasphemy to God.

"I wouldn't dare speak without God tellimg me to." Really? How do you know it is God that is telling you to speak in tongues? How do you know if it isn't the devil speaking to you in God's voice. He is a great imitator you know. How can you differentiate. Are you really sure about this. If it can be proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that tongues is not for today, is unbiblical, then what spirit, what God have you been listening to?

2. The same way you would say that you can guarantee that you are serving God and not the devil. It's by faith my friend.

Sorry, I don't run my life by blind faith. I run my life according to the Word of God.
"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."
I can back up my faith with the Word of God. Every belief I have I can back up with the Word of God. You cannot do that. Here is what Peter said:

1Pet.3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
--A Charismatic proves his theology by his experience. "It is right because I have experienced it they say." That is not what the Bible teaches. Prove all things Paul said. We are to measure all things by the Word of God, and give an answer to every man according to the Word of God, not according to our experience. Your experience doesn't amount to a hill of beans. The measure of truth is the Word of God, wherein is found the Christ, who said "I am the Truth."

3.Satan is a great imitator but there must be a real thing before it can be imitated. If tongues had ceased then the devil would have no need to imitate. The devil would not ask me to do some of the things God has had me do and the devil would not and does not appreciate the way i live my life and the Gospel that I preach. Satan hates me. LOL! I'm an old Batist boy, it took the real thing to convince me.

It took the "real" phenomena of modern day tongues that started in 1901 in Topeka Kansas to convince you that you now have the real thing. LOL. For 1800 years I suppose by your standards Christians were not real. Real Christianity did not exist, because real Christians did not speak in tongues except from 1901 onward. And their brand of tongues--gibberish is vastly different from that of the Apostles. Tell me what language(s) do you speak in when you speak in tongues?

4. I tried the Spirits and dilegently studied the Word of God. It all worked together. The Word of God is what moved me to tarry for the promise.

How, in what manner did you try the spirits? How did you study the Word of God to come to the conclusions that you did? There are others that will say the same thing. You no doubt have heard of the "Toronto Blessing." They too claim to study God's Word and be led by His Spirit. The consequence of their being baptized in the Spirit is: barking like a dog, roaring like a lion, howling like a wolf, hissing like a snake, and so on-- a veritable demon-possessed zoo. Are you baptized by the spirit--the same spirit as they?

5. I am not deceived about the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Some people are, some people on both sides of the fence. Some reject the Word of Truth and others reject the Spirit of Truth, which work together. I don't see where the Corinthians were what you call deceived. Some of them needed some instruction and some of them were not even Christians so if they were speaking in tongues then it was not by the Spirit. Paul never forbade them to speak in tongues.

I'm not afraid of any questions. I have not ignored yours just didn't see them. God Bless!

Some of the Corinthians were obviously deceived in that they were calling Jesus Christ accursed. That is why Paul rebuked them for it. How do you know that you are not doing the same thing, falling into the same trap? That is all that I am asking of any of the tongues-speakers here. If you don't know what you are saying, how do you know that you are not unwittingly givng praise to Satan?

You say you are not deceived about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs just once in the life of every believer, and that at the time of salvation. It is never accompanied by tongues.
DHK

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
Quicken does mean to give life. Life is given to the body or parts of it by the Spirit. My body didn't quiver on my accord but by the Spirits. He gave life to it. Until you can see that the word quicken is just that then more scriptures will be pointless.

Well, I can't see it because the Word quicken is NOT a synonym for quiver, nor are the two related in any way. Giving life does not create quivering, no where in the context is that ever suggested.

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
Acts the 18th and 19th chapters gives the account of Apollos. He was already a believer but had not heard whether there be any Holy Ghost or Holy Guest one might say.

First off, the story of Apollos is in Acts 18, the Holy Ghost baptism you are referring to in Acts 19 happened in Ephesus. It didn't happen to Apollos for he was not even there, he was in Corinth.

Acts 19:1
19:1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples
NIV

As a minister who teaches this, do you not even read it thoroughly enough to catch this important piece of information? The man wasn't there, it wasn't him. It doesn't take a genius to understand this verse.

You claim these disciples were already believers, but were they? How is one saved? What is the gospel?

1 Cor 15:1-5
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
NIV

These gentleman didn't even know all this, all they knew was John's baptism. Paul then clarified and explained that John's baptism was one of repentance (not life giving salvation) and that John told the people to believe in Jesus. Only then did these people become saved for when they heard this they were then baptized and received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:4-6
Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
NIV

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
I don't rely on just Acts 2. I use the whole Bible rightly divided to sum up what the Lord is saying.

But you said "That's the way it was done in the book of Acts." Is your experience the way it was done in Acts or not?

If it is, why can't I understand you in my own langauge?

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
The word doesn't say that everyone around him when he spoke in tongues understood what he said.

Every version of the Bible I use says it. Here is what the KJV says.

Acts 2:6

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
KJV

The word in the greek is "hekastos", which means every.

Originally posted by Victory Leader:

The same goes with Cornelius and his family and friends. No where does the Bible say that others heard them in their language.

No, but it doesn't say either way. It does say that the Jews were the ones who heard and were amazed.

There are only 3 instances of tongues in the entire book of Acts in each instance Jews were present and involved.

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
You have failed to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

You aren't rightly dividing, you are adding, speculating and avoiding it.

~Lorelei

[ February 17, 2003, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[Singer]

(DHK)
Sorry, I don't run my life by blind faith. I run my life according to the Word of God. (DHK)

(Singer)
Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Consinder how vulnerable your faith in your own salvation is. Could
Satan counterfeit that also. Maybe you should be afraid for yourself
in that respect. How do you know you are not given a fake and that
your complacency is a fraud...?

Compare that to the circumstances and the faith those of us have in
the experience of self edification through praying in the spirit with
tongues involved. It's the same faith is is not?

(DHK)
You say you are not deceived about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But the baptism of the
Holy Spirit occurs just once in the life of every believer, and that at the time of salvation. It is never accompanied by tongues.

(Singer)
Agreed the bible is not clear on that. But.........that makes
the pro-tongues side on equal standing. The same is said
for salvation....
1. When does it occur?
2. Do we receive the baptism of the H.S. at that time?
3. Do we know we have it?
4. What does ''accepting the Lord" mean
5. "Accept the Lord" doesn't even appear in the bible
6. Could a person be saved and be wrong about tongues ?
7. SDA, Catholics etc do not believe they can know that
they are saved. They say that claiming that is of the
Devil. (Putting words in God's mouth). Sad .

 

[Victory Leader]

DHK wrote,

A Charismatic proves his theology by his experience. "

How many times do I need to say I'm not pentecostal nor am I charasmatic. Saying I'm charasmatic is like saying your satanic. Catch my drift. As far as Toronto or Brownsville goes. That's a work of the devil and it gives people like me a difficult time because people like you look to those people to be mouth pieces for people like me. And yes, I'm the king of the run-on sentence. LOL! Those people are usually associated with the Assemblies of God, AOG, and do not believe in living Christ-like this side of eternity. Therefore they cannot receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Please, Do not associate me with those people. Read what i post and communicate with me based on what I write.

Sorry, I don't run my life by blind faith. I run my life according to the Word of God.

Are you Baptist? if so I can chew your doctrine to shreds with the Word of God, KJV. I've been there and done that. So maybe you do live by blind faith.

It took the "real" phenomena of modern day tongues that started in 1901 in Topeka Kansas to convince you that you now have the real thing.

Actually many believers were receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost in the 1880's. Many of these people were Baptists. They weren't seeking it but when they let go and really worshipped the Lord they received it. We could only be saved after we were CONVINCED of sin by the Word of God and by the Spirit of God. How do we know that it was the Holy Ghost that brought conviction to us? Maybe it was another spirit imitating Him. You can't live by the what if. You gotta live by faith. Assuming your Baptist, Has anyone ever shouted during one of your services? Have they ever wept? Most Baptist preachers all have this certain way that they preach, the "baptist anointing", is that in the Bible? What about the weeping and shouting, Is that in the Bible? Did the NT say use instruments? Oh, My bad. That's a church of Christ argument.That's the way your sounding.

But the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs just once in the life of every believer, and that at the time of salvation.

You can't prove this with the Word of God, the Bible.

 

[Singer]

(Lorelei)
These gentleman didn't even know all this, all they knew was John's
baptism. Paul then clarified and explained that John's baptism was
one of repentance (not life giving salvation) and that John told the
people to believe in Jesus. Only then did these people
become saved for when they heard this they were then baptized
and received the Holy Spirit.

(Singer)
Lorelei, are you saying that no one was saved during the time of
the preaching of John's baptism....?
(Before Christ arose and they were able to receive the Holy Spirit)?

 

[Victory Leader]

Lorelei wrote,

First off, the story of Apollos is in Acts 18, the Holy Ghost baptism you are referring to in Acts 19 happened in Ephesus. It didn't happen to Apollos for he was not even there, he was in Corinth.

You're right. I skimmed through the Scripture quickly and mixed my stories. Still we have BELIEVERS receiving the Spirit later.

How is one saved? What is the gospel?

Saved = repent and believe
Gospel = good news about Jesus or salvation

John the Baptist required both repentance and belief and he preached Jesus.

(not life giving salvation)

The scripture doesn't say that. You add that. If repentance doesn't bring grace then what does? A handshake with the preacher maybe?

But you said "That's the way it was done in the book of Acts." Is your experience the way it was done in Acts or not?

If it is, why can't I understand you in my own langauge?

That's a good question. I'm typing in English and you still can't understand. I use the whole Bible. The baptism of the Spirit is found throughout Acts as well as the Bible as a whole.

Every version of the Bible I use says it.

There's only one English Bible. The others aren't the Bible. They are the words of satanists, homosexuals, business men, and heretics.

Who's ignoring the Word?

There are only 3 instances of tongues in the entire book of Acts in each instance Jews were present and involved.

You insist that when people speak in tongues everyone present must understand them. That's not Bible. You are wrong.

 

[neal4christ]

There's only one English Bible. The others aren't the Bible. They are the words of satanists, homosexuals, business men, and heretics.

I am sure you have evidence for this weighty accusation, correct?

Neal

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
You're right. I skimmed through the Scripture quickly and mixed my stories.

Thanks for admitting the error.

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
Saved = repent and believe
Gospel = good news about Jesus or salvation

What about Jesus or salvation makes up the gospel. What must you believe?

There are three things that are in the gospel. I quoted it for you, but you ignored it.

1 Cor 15:1-5
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
NIV

For salvation, one must not only believe that Christ existed, he must believe in these three things.

Christ died for our sins
Christ was buried
Christ was raised on the third day.

Originally posted by Victory Leader:

John the Baptist required both repentance and belief and he preached Jesus.

But they believed in a Jesus that was alive at the time. He preached that Jesus was coming, not in the death, burial and ressurection. These disciples had not heard of the Holy Spirit, there is no evidence that they heard of Christ's death, burial and ressurection.

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />(not life giving salvation)

The scripture doesn't say that. You add that. </font>[/QUOTE]

Which is why I put it in parenthesis.

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
If repentance doesn't bring grace then what does? A handshake with the preacher maybe?

Belief in the 3 things listed above, things that happened after these people beleived Paul.

Only people who were alive at the time of Christ's life through his ressurection could believe in Him and not have His Spirit. All this had to take place before His Spirit could give us life. And that is what the Spirit does, it gives us life, which is what salvation is all about.

Do you care to argue that you do not need to believe in those three things?

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
That's a good question. I'm typing in English and you still can't understand. I use the whole Bible. The baptism of the Spirit is found throughout Acts as well as the Bible as a whole.

This was a cute way to avoid the question. Let me ask it again. When you speak in a tongue why can't people hear you in their own language?

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
There's only one English Bible. The others aren't the Bible. They are the words of satanists, homosexuals, business men, and heretics.

Even the one you make this claim about says it. Isn't the KJV what you use? It is the one I quoted. You just ignored it and changed the subject.

Here is what the KJV says.

Acts 2:6

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
KJV

You went off subject to avoid the fact that this verse proved you wrong.

Originally posted by Victory Leader:

You insist that when people speak in tongues everyone present must understand them. That's not Bible. You are wrong.

Then explain Acts 2:6 and tell me why this isn't what you experience.

Originally posted by Victory Leader:

Who's ignoring the Word?

You are, you didn't address any of these points or scriptures that were presented.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Singer:
Lorelei, are you saying that no one was saved during the time of
the preaching of John's baptism....?
(Before Christ arose and they were able to receive the Holy Spirit)?

Do you believe how Paul defined the gospel? (Refer to my post to Victory above with scripture and explanation)

I believe salvation under the new covenant did not occur until the death burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ. Before that, men were saved the same way that every OT person was, through faith in what was yet to come.

Now would you like to answer the question I asked you a few pages back?

Did Peter quote scripture on Pentecost or not?


~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> There's only one English Bible. The others aren't the Bible. They are the words of satanists, homosexuals, business men, and heretics.

I am sure you have evidence for this weighty accusation, correct?

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]He doesn't have evidence for anything else he said in the post, I don't suspect he has any for this either.

~Lorelei

 

[Victory Leader]

Lorelei wrote,

1 Cor 15:1-5
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
NIV

That's not the gospel. That, the NIV (non inspired version) is the work of Rupert Murdoc and his band of homosexual translators.


Look, I've answered your questions and you've dodged mine. Are you just posting so you can get in some 1000 posts club or something. Practice what you preach. Keep Silence. you're just bringing confusion into the equation and that's not of God. You go back and forth with the same Acts 2:6 which I've answered and you look past. Oh well.


As for the KJV being the only English Bible that is inspired. Yes, I can prove it but I'm sure the subject's not new to you so I won't bother.

[ February 18, 2003, 03:19 AM: Message edited by: Victory Leader ]

 

[neal4christ]

That's not the gospel. That, the NIV (non inspired version) is the work of Rupert Murdoc and his band of homosexual translators.

Would you mind pointing out which translators were homosexuals?

As for the KJV being the only English Bible that is inspired. Yes, I can prove it but I'm sure the subject's not new to you so I won't bother.

I would like to see this proof if you have it. There is a whole forum in the Baptist Only section on translations, and many of the KJVOs can't prove it. If I start a thread down here, will you please post this proof?

Neal

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
How many times do I need to say I'm not pentecostal nor am I charasmatic. Saying I'm charasmatic is like saying your satanic. Catch my drift.

"you shall know them by their fruits"
You believe in a second blessing--a baptism of the Holy Spirit.
You believe in speaking in tongues.
You believe that the gifts of the Spirit are for today.
You are part of the Charismatic movement; you are a charismatic.

As far as Toronto or Brownsville goes. That's a work of the devil and it gives people like me a difficult time because people like you look to those people to be mouth pieces for people like me. And yes, I'm the king of the run-on sentence. LOL! Those people are usually associated with the Assemblies of God, AOG, and do not believe in living Christ-like this side of eternity. Therefore they cannot receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Please, Do not associate me with those people. Read what i post and communicate with me based on what I write.

All right, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Was it not you that was speaking of "quivering?"

Are you Baptist? if so I can chew your doctrine to shreds with the Word of God, KJV. I've been there and done that. So maybe you do live by blind faith.

Chew my doctrine? You might want to try some milk of the word first.

(1 Cor 10:12 KJV) Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

How do we know that it was the Holy Ghost that brought conviction to us? Maybe it was another spirit imitating Him. You can't live by the what if. You gotta live by faith.

How do I know? I know according to God's Word. If it isn't according to God's Word; it isn't of God. It sounds like you allow your experiences to dictate your theology. We live in a very emotion and experience-centered world. It revolves around self instead of Christ. "See what experience I have had," etc.

Assuming your Baptist, Has anyone ever shouted during one of your services? Have they ever wept? Most Baptist preachers all have this certain way that they preach, the "baptist anointing", is that in the Bible? What about the weeping and shouting, Is that in the Bible? Did the NT say use instruments? Oh, My bad. That's a church of Christ argument.That's the way your sounding.

We follow the Bible, as we believe it to be true. I belong to an independent Baptist church. As in the New Testament, there were no denominations. Thus all of our churches are indempendent one from another. We do not belong to any association, convention, denomination, etc. Some of the churches I am acquainted with do not have musical instruments; some do. Some clap their hands; some don't. Some preachers jump up and down and shout and yell; and some are more subdued and mellow in their teaching. Every church is different, autonomous, and independent. But we are all accountable to God.
DHK