tongues

[Singer]

Yes, DK, belief either results in good works or it wasn't belief in the first place. Once a person is of contrite heart that positions him for service to God; from then on it is in God's hands to mold him. God's failure to guide that soul according to His will would not be a fault of the receiver. That can't happen though, as God says that whosoever asks for the Spirit receives it. God doesn't say "No, I won't forgive you" nor does He say "No you can't have My spirit".

Whosoever believes !!!
That's where it all starts.
Believing is separate from works.
Works follow believing.
Belief stands alone as the key to salvation.

Singer

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
Has your son really lost the assurance of His salvation? Did he loose these other things because he goes to a particular church...


"Yes, my son has really lost the "assurance" of his salvation; yes, he did lose all those things as a result of satanic seduction. And yes, God is still chastising him.

1.How do you know that your son has lost assurance of his salvation?
2.How do you know that your son lost all of those things because of what you call satanic seduction( a pretty serious accusation)?
3.What do you mean when you say God is chastising him?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by atestring:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
Has your son really lost the assurance of His salvation? Did he loose these other things because he goes to a particular church...


"Yes, my son has really lost the "assurance" of his salvation; yes, he did lose all those things as a result of satanic seduction. And yes, God is still chastising him.

1.How do you know that your son has lost assurance of his salvation?
2.How do you know that your son lost all of those things because of what you call satanic seduction( a pretty serious accusation)?
3.What do you mean when you say God is chastising him? </font>[/QUOTE]Why are you questioning the veracity of the testimony of another Board Member?
Why do you continually berate this mother/gandmother who mourns over the spiritual loss of her son?
Are you in the place of God to judge another's spiritual condition, one of whom you have never met or even conversed with?
If I were Granny Gumbo, and you were my son, I would be taking you behind my woodshed, and teach you that it is not proper to demean and bereate grandmothers publickly. It is not right to do it to others either, anywhere.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
DHK

 

[GrannyGumbo]

A million thanks, BroDHK~I had tried to pm him, but I was blocked...didn't want to appear rude or uncaring, but couldn't understand this "fixed fascination"...God Bless

 

[Mrs Pauline Smith]

Hi All, I have not visited the Board in a long time because my Lord and Savour has called me to rebuild his church,to take his message of Salvation to a lost and hurting world, to give Hope to the oppressed, I came in here today, as I believed he called me to and now I see why, whether we be Baptist or whatever denomination, if you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, and asked for his forgiveness and belive that he is the son of God, and died on the cross at Calvary then you are saved. If you are saved then you have recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit and the gifts which God chooses to give you to build his Kingdom,'Has he returned yet?'
NO! he is still building his kingdom until the return of his blessed Son Jesus Christ. Those who teach anything less will answer for there actions before the King of Creation on the Day of the Lord.
WHETHER ONE SPEAKS IN TOUNGES OR NOT IS NOT IMPORTANT, IT IS THE HEART CONDITION OF THE INDIVIDUAL. God knows where our heart is at, He knows our thoughts, he knows our everything, I leave you with Matthew 21:21&22 To the Grandmother, I will pray that God will show your loved one the truth and the light again.
John15:12 'This is my command that you love one another as I have loved you'

 

[Briguy]

Hi Pauline, Thanks for your post. I agree with most of what you said. I think the reason that I spend time discussing tongues is because I do not want to see people wasting their time doing something that I see the Bible says ended just after 70AD. It is not that I think I am better then anyone else or anything like that (I know that is not the case

) but it just breaks my heart to picture people speaking to God in words that have no meaning. People everyday pray out loud in new languages that don't exist and are just noisy gongs or cymbals(sp? mind blank) to God or others that happen to hear them. Knowing people are doing something that I really truely believe God does not want them to do, makes discussing the issue worthwhile. God wants our minds to be fruitful and I am not willing to just to say it doesn't matter whether they do it or not. It may not affect someones salvation but it surely can affect their Christian walk. Many tongue speakers feel that non-tongue speakers are not saved or at the very least have not "arrived". This is not a good place to be and so the discussion goes on.......

Sorry to carry that on so long.

In Christian Love and Concern,
Brian

 

[Mrs Pauline Smith]

Hi Brian,Thankyou for your reply. I agree with you on the point of many tongue speakers feel that non-speakers are not saved. I have seen the damage that has been done with this attitude, I have been involved in personally helping many christians believe or should I say help them to not doubt they are saved by not just the lack of speaking in tongues but many other issues/wrong doctrine. I have witnessed tongues being used wrongly when I was 15 and it scared my cousin and myself.
I personally do not speak in tongues, but have many friends who do, I do not believe the Lord has stopped giving christians this gift or any other gift, whether it be 70AD or 2004AD, I believe it is how we use the gifts we are given, that is more important, and do they display the fruits of the spirit when they use the gifts.
I am 44 years old and I grew up in a strict Baptist home. Unfortunatly the church I grew up in was religious and not God driven with a passion for Christ. I left when I was 17 as that church felt dead, when I asked questions on tongues, prophecy and other touchy subjects they ran in the other direction. So I started living by the way of the world, I went into the occult/new age looking for God or a spiritual connection in my life, at 38 years old my Mother spoke up after years of silence and warned me of the danger I was in, I was finally shown how satan can decieve people. Strange as it might sound I never felt God had left me through all that time, I now see how he used me even when I was in the depths of new age. One thing I now know, this is his universe, his creation, his right to do what he chooses to do with it in accordance with his Holy Word, and it grieves me and it must grieve our Holy Father to see his children pulling his Word apart and each other.
That Baptist Church that I was brought up in almost closed it's doors a few years ago. Now all these years later he's using me and a small group Christians to help rebuild it into not just a church, but a body of believers who have a passion for Christ, and are allowing his Holy Spirit to move and accepting the gifts he gives us, and hopefully displaying the fruits of the spirit. Matthew 7:20
In six years the love of Jesus has taken me from depression to Youth Group Leader, Kids Church,
Church Deacon, Pastoral Care, Leading and some speaking, and now taking on the challange of Bible College, my Husband became a Christian one year ago after years of alcohol abuse, My 16 year old daughter became a Christian two years ago, my 7 year old son sounds like a preacher already and proudly says he gave his life to Jesus when he was 5, and I have a 13 year old son who is almost there, Yeah I feel Blessed
and I'll say sorry Brian for carrying on so long,
I Just pray that the Lord will show you the wisdom and clarity and the peace you need in the area of tongues.
And yeah I love being a Baptist.
In Christ's Love
Pauline

 

[atestring]

Not all Christians taht speak in Tongues believe that you have to speak in Tongues to be saved. Mainstream Pentecostalism teaches salvation and Baptism in
The Holy Spirit (hat may include Speaking in tongues) are two seperate issues.
Acts 19 deals with this.

 

[atestring]

If tongues ended in 70 AD
did this happen On January 1 or December 31 or some other date that year?
Who was the last person to Speak in Tongues?
What time of day did God Say ,"OK That's it, tongues has ceased"?

 

[Don]

Ms. Pauline Smith said:

Now all these years later he's using me and a small group Christians to help rebuild it into not just a church, but a body of believers who have a passion for Christ, and are allowing his Holy Spirit to move and accepting the gifts he gives us, and hopefully displaying the fruits of the spirit. Matthew 7:20

Ms. Smith, for my edification, could you please tell us what the fruits of the spirit are, and how you tie them in with the "gifts He gives us"?

Thanks!

 

[Briguy]

Hey atestring! The 70Ad thing is the year in which Isreal was scattered and lost her physical nation. In the early pages of this thread it was explained that when discussing certain gifts, Paul said that tougues would end, cease, whatever english word you want to use is fine. In Greek he used a word that meant fizzle out. Fade away on their own may be a better way to say it. Nothing happens to Tongues to stop them they just fade out on their own. Tongues pointed to the destruction that came in 70AD. Once that came Tongues were not needed and the gift would have not been given anymore. You would not put a "curve ahead" road sign after the curve, right? The point is the people that had the gift of Tongues had it until they died, so probably in the years after 70AD there were less and less people who had it until the last person who had it died. Tongues faded away by 100AD or so but were not given out after 70AD. Think about it. That explanation matches the verb Paul uses exactly. I have never never never heard a tongue speaker explain why tongues end at one time and knowledge and prophecy and at a different time but that is what Paul says by the words he uses. I will not just pass over scripture like this and you shouldn't either. Hope that explains the 70AD idea anyway.

Pauline, that was a very nice post. I am glad that God has brought you back into fellowship with Him, sorry you had to go through years of confusion but in the end you can now minister to people who you couldn't have ministered to if you had not had your experiences. Sounds like God is using you. Make sure you concentrate on the areas that mean the most, sharing the Gospel and building up the brethern. I don't pretend to know everything about gifts and tongues but I know enough to know that God's Word says that Tongues were a sign and that sign is not needed. Your friends that speak in tongues are well intentioned I'm sure but they are in error. They could be spending their tongue speaking time being in appropriate communion with God. I am sure you care about them alot as do I with some of my tongue speaking friends. As for the service gifts I believe God does still give those gifts for the building of His "body".

Pauline, just one more question and please don't take this wrong. I can't figure out a good way to ask so I am just taking the direct approach. What exact ministry things are you doing in the church you are in? You said speaking, etc... Who are you speaking to, and so on. Thanks and take care.

Your brother in the Lord,
Brian

 

[atestring]

Briguy,
I cannot understand your argument concering AD 70.
Help me out. Where is the scripture reference to tongues ceasing in 70 AD?
Why do you say that tongues were not needed?
If it is because the scripture was written ( i personally don't believe that argument) wouldn't tongues have ceased immediately?
Wouldn't the scripture Have given us more detail about when tongues were to cease?
When Did knowledge cease?
When did the prophecy fail?
These references are in the same context.

 

[Briguy]

Hi atestring,
This was covered early in the thread but just remember that Paul references Isaiah (28, I think) where Isaiah speaks of the coming judgment and destruction. In 70AD the judgement came and therefore the sign, “Tongues” was not needed anymore. It is that simple. As for Prophecy and Knowledge, Paul used a different verb for “cease”. That verb means that something will happen to end them. That thing is the “perfect” coming. No I do not believe that is the Bible and so those two gifts are still with us as the perfect is referring to the coming eternal state of a person, either in death or the setting up of the new Kingdom.
That’s all for now, hope that answered the question

In Christ,
Brian

 

[DHK]

Isaiah 28:11-12 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

 

[MEE]

[qb] Isaiah 28:11-12 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

**This is referring to the fact that the Spirit of God was first given to the Jews, (Acts 2:4)which in turn they "rejected."

Then the gift of the Holy Ghost, or promise, was given to the Gentiles. When given it was said, "...For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, (THAT'S US!

) even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39)

He's still calling

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:
[qb] Isaiah 28:11-12 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

**This is referring to the fact that the Spirit of God was first given to the Jews, (Acts 2:4)which in turn they "rejected."

MEE

That's right MEE.
That is why in 1Cor.14:21,22 Paul explains that tongues is a sign to the unbelieving Jew. The Jew had a chance to believe that the gospel message was authentic. It was a message from God, saying that Jesus was indeed the Messiah as foretold in the Scriptures (Isaiah). They rejected it just like Isaiah had predicted. And therefore judgment came as Isaiah had predicted. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. and tongues ceased around the same time. Tongues was a sign for the unbelieving Jew. When the judgement came, the reason for the sign was no more needful. It ceased after the judgement came in 70 A.D. Tongues was a sign for the unbelieving Jew.
DHK

 

[Mrs Pauline Smith]

Don: As it says in 1 Corinthians 3:16 our body is God's Temple and God's Spirit lives in us. When we become christians we are called to live by the Spirit and become Christlike. If we are not in Christ we do not have the Holy Spirit in us and cannot display the fruits of the Spirit.
Galatians5:22&23,'But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.'
If we do not have the fruits then the Spiritual gifts are of no value to us, for they are for the building of his church, the body of Christ.
If someone says they have the gift of tongues or prophecy or any spiritual gift, yet if it is not done in Love, joy, peace, patience, faithfulness,gentleness and self-control, then it is not of God and you do not need to listen to them, But if they do disply the fruits it would be wise to listen to what they have to say.
1 John 4:1-6
Atestring: I'm not sure what you are saying with Acts 19, But I intend to ask God's guidence and allow him to show me what you mean.
Brain: I'm also trying to understand why you think tongues ceased in 70AD, I pray that whoever has misread the scriptures will be willing to allow the Lord to open his mind to the truth.
In answer to your question, what ministry things am I doing? the Lord started my Leadership role in Youth group, then moved on to Kids Church, I am no longer involved in these areas. I am also a Deacon but that is also changing into the role of an Elder. I am learning all aspects of Leading and preaching in the Worship service. I have been told I Have the gifts of Mercy, Joy and Foreknowledge. When the Lord asks me to speak, whether it be from the pulpit or as a messenger (giving an individual a word from God), I will obey. I guess Brian my ministry is Mission, to serve, to teach, to preach, to heal, whenever and where ever God leads me.
I'll say thanks for the Discussion guys and I'll leave you with this thought:- 'How will we help others believe in Jesus if he is not central in our message and the consuming passion of our lives? How will people believe that their is no-one like Jesus if they see his folllowers quarrelling with one another, unwilling to work together, often pre-occupied with things that are trivial in comparison with christ? How will men and Women be convinced of their need for God if we are not burdened for those who are lost, if we are apahtetic about evangelism, and if we are not willing to pay the price of reaching out for Christ? These are the Questions that many outsiders take seriously, and the Church should do so as well.'

 

[Don]

You left out goodness, faith, and meekness.

I'm also assuming that in the way that you phrased your answer, you don't believe that anyone "has" to speak in tongues. You phrased your answer in the form of 1 Corinthians 13:1 (paraphrased, without love, we become a tinkling cymbal).

And speaking of meekness: Why would you go against scripture and allow yourself to be an elder, having authority over men? Unless you belong to an all-woman church, and plan only to preach to women.

 

[Briguy]

Hi Carol,
Check this out from Isaiah 28:
[11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
[12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
[13] But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
[14] Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
[15] Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
[16] Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
[17] Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

Read all of 28 for an even greater picture of what was going on. The Bible is clear that Tongues will fade away on their own. Paul references Isaiah when dealing with tongues, not DHK or me.

Don, thanks for your post, now you look like the "He-Man Woman Hater", not me.

Pauline, the elder issue is asked in love, just so you know. You seem to have a heart for the Lord and I appreciate the passion in which you post. If possible look at Walguy's posts on the first couple pages of this thread and you will see some neat theological proof of what I am saying. Take care,

In Christ,
Brian

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi Carol,
Check this out from Isaiah 28:
[11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
[12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Read all of 28 for an even greater picture of what was going on. The Bible is clear that Tongues will fade away on their own. Paul references Isaiah when dealing with tongues, not DHK or me.

In Christ,
Brian

So, why do you feel that God removed "speaking in tongues," with the destruction of Israel?

The Jews rejected His plan of salvation, and He gave it to us. Why would he remove the evidence of one receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

That's like giving the Jews one type of salvation and changing it to another gospel. Now we know that can't be so Brian!

MEE