Too free or not too free, that is the question.

[King James Bond]

I really get tired of people proclaiming free-will.

One person on this board claims that God wants to save all people meaning each and every person.

He first claims the way God does this is He "enlightens" each and every man. He does this for a reason....to save them.

But the problem we have is it does not save everybody.

A little later we find out that not all men are enlightened enough to save them.....so God's enlightenment must not be very light.

It would seem God just has not figured out who needs a little more and which others need a little less.

Isn't enlightenment enlightenment anymore? Is there like a lighter enlightenment and a darker enlightenment? If people are enlightened cant they see?

The same person claiming that God wants to save everybody and "enlightens" them for the very purpose of saving them......can't explain why enlightenment has no effect. So along we go on his next rabbit trail.

God wants to save each and every person so He draws them to Himself. Yea thats it! He draws everybody to Himself.

The problem is this guy can't show that ALL people are drawn to God. As a matter of fact we can find many in the world that are very away from God and not drawn to Him at all.

So what kind of draw is a draw that does not draw? Help me out here please!

We find out that the drawing just does not work because some people just do not come. So here we go on another rabbit trail.

It must be education! Yea...thats it...education.

God educates but some people do not learn.

Here after all these rabbit trails we find our ALL POWERFUL MIGHTY GOD unable to enlighten when He enlightens, unable to draw when He draws, and unable to educate the uneducated. You guessed it.....here we go on another rabbit trail!

It must be free-will he claims! Yea thats it! He gave people free-will!

So now what this person claims is that it is free-will that brings a person to salvation.

All the drawing, enlightenment, and education has been thrown out for free-will!

It seems as if drawing, enlightenment, and education only have effect on those that are coming, enlightened, and educated!

What kind of God is this with no power to draw, enlighten, and educate.....but is rather wholly dependent on the will of people?

Why did He draw if it has no effect? What does He enlighten people when it makes no difference? Makes no sense at all!

And how does this man KNOW he has free-will in the first place?

Let me tell you folks.....God draws to save! He enlightens with effect!

Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son so He can give glory back to you. For you have given Him authority over everyone in all the earth. He gives eternal life to each one you have given Him.
Free-will?

So you see, God shows mercy to some just because he wants to, and He chooses to make some people refuse to listen. Free-will?

Well then, what shall we say about these things? Just this: The Gentiles have been made right with God by faith, even though they were not seeking Him. Free-will?

"If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Free-will?

I said, `Even if Balak were to give me a palace filled with silver and gold, I am powerless to do anything against the will of the LORD.' I told you that I could say only what the LORD says! Free-will?

So the LORD brought the king of Babylon against them. The Babylonians killed Judah's young men, even chasing after them into the Temple. They had no pity on the people, killing both young and old, men and women, healthy and sick. God handed them all over to Nebuchadnezzar. Free-will?

In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, the LORD fulfilled Jeremiah's prophecy by stirring the heart of Cyrus to put this proclamation into writing and to send it throughout his kingdom. Free-will?

"But true wisdom and power are with God; counsel and understanding are His. What He destroys cannot be rebuilt. When He closes in on someone, there is no escape. If He holds back the rain, the earth becomes a desert. If He releases the waters, they flood the earth." Free-will?

"Yes, strength and wisdom are with Him; deceivers and deceived are both in His power. He leads counselors away stripped of good judgment; He drives judges to madness. He removes the royal robe of kings. With ropes around their waist, they are led away. He leads priests away stripped of status; He overthrows the mighty. He silences the trusted adviser, and He removes the insight of the elders. He pours disgrace upon princes and confiscates weapons from the strong." Free-will?

"He floods the darkness with light; He brings light to the deepest gloom. He raises up nations, and He destroys them. He makes nations expand, and He abandons them. He takes away the understanding of kings, and He leaves them wandering in a wasteland without a path. They grope in the darkness without a light. He makes them stagger like drunkards." Free-will?

ALL GLORY TO GOD! HIS WILL be done on earth as it is in Heaven!

KJB

 

[prophecynut]

Well done KJB

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

James Bond;

I really get tired of people proclaiming free-will.

Well you don't have to come here and read our post.

One person on this board claims that God wants to save all people meaning each and every person.

Now that would be horrible wouldn't it if everyone got saved. We don't want heaven to be too crowded.

But the problem we have is it does not save everybody.

A little later we find out that not all men are enlightened enough to save them.....so God's enlightenment must not be very light.

Never heard of rebellion Hmmmmm.

It would seem God just has not figured out who needs a little more and which others need a little less.

God isn't stupid friend.

Isn't enlightenment enlightenment anymore? Is there like a lighter enlightenment and a darker enlightenment? If people are enlightened cant they see?

Why not be about the bussiness of shinning a little more light at them yourself you know help God out. Oh I forgot the predestined elect will be saved anyway. Why shucks they weren't in any danger anyway.

The same person claiming that God wants to save everybody and "enlightens" them for the very purpose of saving them......can't explain why enlightenment has no effect. So along we go on his next rabbit trail.

I hear those rabbits have fleas watch out there's one over there!

God wants to save each and every person so He draws them to Himself. Yea thats it! He draws everybody to Himself.

The problem is this guy can't show that ALL people are drawn to God. As a matter of fact we can find many in the world that are very away from God and not drawn to Him at all.

So what kind of draw is a draw that does not draw? Help me out here please!

Sure here's some good advice. Pray for wisdom. You might just figure it out then.

We find out that the drawing just does not work because some people just do not come. So here we go on another rabbit trail.

I allready warned you about the flea's rabbit's have. Maybe you should take notes.

What kind of God is this with no power to draw, enlighten, and educate.....but is rather wholly dependent on the will of people?

Why did He draw if it has no effect? What does He enlighten people when it makes no difference? Makes no sense at all!

And how does this man KNOW he has free-will in the first place?

And after all those rabbits this is what you come up with.

ALL GLORY TO GOD! HIS WILL be done on earth as it is in Heaven!

I've always wonderd why we should pray that His will, will be done when according to Calvinist it will be anyway.

In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[TomMann]

KJB,

Love to argue with these guys.... but the most effective arguments are to just post a scripture or two and watch them fall apart.... Like Acts 13:48..... And then watch them scramble when they have to explain why the bible doesn't mean what it says...... They hermanute and exegete the words to agree with them.... I take it at times that if you don't have a Dr. ThD in front and back of your name, and don't have a degree in greek language, you have no reason to read the bible.... you have to wait until one of these great men of goda appear to tell you what to think....

Plain truth is that the bible itself explains itself beyond their ability to add or detract....

 

[Ray Berrian]

Does the Apostle John say that John the Baptist came to bear witness to the Light {meaning Jesus}?

Did God speak through the Apostle John speak through the Baptist saying, "I came to bear witness to the Light {Jesus} that all men through Him {Jesus} might believe?

Or did the Baptist say he was bearing witnes to the Light so the 'ELECT' might believe? [John 1:7].

Your correct answer will give you Biblical theology and not the thoughts and philosophy of men like Calvin.

 

[jarhed]

Post deleted

[ November 01, 2005, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[jarhed]

Jesus was accused of arrogance, as was John the Baptist. I am not arrogant. I am a worthless, once hellbound sinner, saved by the grace of God. There is nothing in me worth talking about...I am simply declaring the REVEALED truths of God's word. I will always use PASSAGES and CONTEXTS to prove scriptural truth. Not my opinion from singly wrested verses. I seek only His GLORY and MAJESTY. Oh for the day we follow God, and actually READ his word and don't go through life just repeating the same old argumentative diatribe based on mans smallminded "logic."

 

[King James Bond]

ILUVLIGHT,

Brilliant! So now you have proved free-will! Thats how you do it.

I say,

I really get tired of people proclaiming free-will.

And you reply,

Well you don't have to come here and read our post.

Wow! Magnifico!

There you are folks.....a perfect example of a belief in free-will with not one shred of evidence to back it up......not only does ILUVLIGHT have nothing to defend such a belief......ILUVLIGHT goes against all the Scripture posted on the first thread showing God directs, moves, influences, and has TOTAL control over people!

Why don't we all throw out Scripture and believe ILUVLIGHT!

ILUVLIGHT....while I value your right to have your own conscience with your own beliefs........I do not value your belief.

Your belief in free-will is tantamount and just as valid as a garden snail believing radio waves don't exist.

ILUVLIGHT,

The person that was telling me out of context that God wants to save everybody used verse portions like (God draws all men to Himself) and (God enlightens every man) as the focal point of his entire argument.

If people are rebels....and has resisted....then the fact is GOD did not draw or enlighten evry man...Get it?

He is powerless against rebels! So who does He draw? Those coming already? Is that supposed to be a show of power? Watch everybody while I draw the willing. Ewwwwwww so powerful!

I can draw water out of the sky to me also....I just wait for it to rain and draw it. What amazing power I have.

You make no sense at all.

We can change lote of verses for you.

For it is by FREE-WILL you have been saved, through faith--and that ALL OF YOURSELVES, it is not a gift from God--not by works so you all can boast.

Does not sound right for some reason.

You speak just as the other guy does....of a God with no power. A God that is helpless. His enlightenment does not enlighten and His drawing just can't draw.

So we are down to that self declarated self righteous battle cry again of that thing that is without proof.

We are saved by FREE-WILL is your cry! We will start changing all bumper stickers right away. From "Jesus saves" to "Free-will saves".

Ray,

Did God speak through the Apostle John speak through the Baptist saying, "I came to bear witness to the Light {Jesus} that all men through Him {Jesus} might believe?

You are right......"might believe".....but then again "might not".. all as God wills.

jarhed,

Let God be true, and every man a liar.

By your own words I will take that to mean I will not regard what you say as meaningful unless of course you speak the Words of God.

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. Free-will huh?

Boast guys boast!

"For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He foreordained, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified."

Lets hear some more boasting! Glory to Free-will!

"He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that will make them fall." They stumble because they do not listen to God's word or obey it, and so they meet the fate that has been planned for them. But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are a kingdom of priests, God's holy nation, his very own possession. This is so you can show others the goodness of God, for He called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

Let us hear some more boasting! No one calls us out of darkness....we came out because of our glorious free-will! Praise free-will!

At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. "Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Glory to free-will that wonderful saving power!

Come on you free-willers....think! Think!

KJB

 

[2BHizown]

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Tom Mann;
I didn't fall apart but your explanation of this verse does.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
We are all ordained to eternal life when we believe.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

We are all ordained to eternal life when we believe.

But that's not what the verse says. It says that those who "were ordained ... believed." The ordaining to eternal life preceded the belief in the verse.

[ November 01, 2005, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

James Bond;

ILUVLIGHT goes against all the Scripture posted on the first thread showing God directs, moves, influences, and has TOTAL control over people!

Please tell us just where these so called scriptures come from. If they come from the Bible which one?
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Larry;

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT;
We are all ordained to eternal life when we believe.[/qutoe]
Larry's response;
But that's not what the verse says. It says that those who "were ordained ... believed." The ordaining to eternal life preceded the belief in the verse.

Really??? That's sort like Grace comes before faith when Eph2:8 says that Grace comes through Faith Huh?
I'm not going to fall apart over the issue of one verse and One witness. Only a fool would place his own soul in the trust of one verse when it stands alone. Act 13:48 is not the death of my faith.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

My only point, Mike, was to point out that Acts 13:38 says one thing, and you say another. You can say it is only one verse, and that is fine. But it is still one verse with the words that God inspired. If God had wanted to say what you said, he certainly could have. He decided not to.

BTW, Eph 2:8 doesn't discuss whether grace or faith comes first. It says that salvation is by grace through faith. That is not really a logical or chronological discussion.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Larry;

BTW, Eph 2:8 doesn't discuss whether grace or faith comes first. It says that salvation is by grace through faith. That is not really a logical or chronological discussion.

The chronology in the Greek is reversed.
Like this;
From the Texus Receptus;
Act 13:48 ακουοντα191 δε1161 τα3588 εθνη1484 εχαιρον5463 και2532 εδοξαζον1392 τον3588 λογον3056 του3588 κυριου2962 και2532 επιστευσαν4100 οσοι3745 ησαν2258 τεταγμενοι5021 εις1519 ζωην2222 αιωνιον166

You will notice that believe comes first in the greek
Act 13:48 And1161 when the3588 Gentiles1484 heard191 this, they were glad,5463 and2532 glorified1392 the3588 word3056 of the3588 Lord:2962 and2532 as many as3745 were2258 ordained5021 to1519 eternal166 life2222 believed.4100
We have to remember that translation are not inspired. All that is, are the original manuscripts
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Larry;
By the way it is also that way in the codex of Westscott and Hort.
Act 13:48 ακουοντα191 V-PAP-NPN δε1161 CONJ τα3588 T-NPN εθνη1484 N-NPN εχαιρον5463 V-IAI-3P και2532 CONJ εδοξαζον1392 V-IAI-3P τον3588 T-ASM λογον3056 N-ASM του3588 T-GSM | θεου2316 N-GSM | κυριου2962 N-GSM | και2532 CONJ επιστευσαν4100 V-AAI-3P οσοι3745 K-NPM ησαν2258 V-IXI-3P τεταγμενοι5021 V-RPP-NPM εις1519 PREP ζωην2222 N-ASF αιωνιον166 A-ASF
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

Incorrect. The chronology in Greek is not reversed. The word order is. The chronology is determined from verb tense, not from word order.

In English we might say, "Those who were in the car went to the store." We might also say "They went to the store who were in the car."

In both words orders, the chronology is the same. In contemporary English, one is more common than the other. But they both have the same chronology.

The same is true in Acts 13:48. The word order (translated) is "... and they believed whoever was appointed to eternal life." The "appointing" chronologically and logically precedes the "belief" in either word order.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Larry;
According to modern Greek, maybe, but ancient Greeks did not hand down any dictionaries or Gramar books did they? So in reality no one knows it's just a guess.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[All about Grace]

It is amusing to watch either side of this debate accuse the other of re-interpreting verses in light of their system. It is an argument that should be tossed out the window because both sides are equally guilty.

Ordained does not mean ordained ... world does not mean world ... believe does not mean believe ... the cycle never stops.

That's why systems are not the solution.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Larry;

The same is true in Acts 13:48. The word order (translated) is "... and they believed whoever was appointed to eternal life." The "appointing" chronologically and logically precedes the "belief" in either word order.

You can believe that if you want to but to me it's nonsense. Originally the word believe comes before ordained. Which is the opposite arrangement of what you claim. The theory that we are ordained first in order to believe isn't true. I hope you noticed that I didn't fall apart over Act 13:48.As predicted by James Bond.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike