Total Depravity Exposed

[skypair]

==I am not rehasing "dogma" (whatever that is).

Dogma is something that must be believed without understanding. It basically is a "gap" in knowledge that one's authorities tell you to ignore.

"Systematic Theology" used to be called "Reform Dogma" but that term was repulsive to most Protestants (though expressing exactly what it authors meant it to express!)

You still have not explained how you can claim that John 6:44 and 12:32 are talking about the same type of drawing without backing yourself into universalism.

Universalism would say that all men are saved. Because Calvinism believes that drawing is always efficacious, it thinks that free will is claiming that everyone is saved. That is simply not what drawing means at all. Drawing means attracting, in this case with something desireable --- salvation. Doesn't mean it is given -- just that what is offered IS the heart's desire of every man (though most cannot get over relinquishing their desires for it).

You still have not explained how lost people, dead in sin, and who do not seek God on their own, actually do seek God.

One reason is on account of this "drawing." Another is that God "hath put eternity in their hearts," Ecc 3:11, 14 and Rom 1:19-20. I'm curious -- does Calvinism account for these? That man can know there is a God? that man can know there is an eternity and still not want to live eternally?

==I point you to John 6:37 again:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me"

And I again to Col 1:13 -- "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" Once we are justified by God, we are given into the Son's kingdom, the church, for sanctification.

How do we participate? We believe in Christ. This is not done because we took the first step it is done only because God worked in our hearts and drew us to Christ.

Of course we didn't take the first step. Who said we did? Jesus died for us -- God preached to us. We merely respond. How is responding a "first step" in your mind?

skypair

 

[Bro. James]

Total Depravity--A thought process?

The scripture is spiritually discerned. We could spend a lifetime on Mars Hill, pondering our navels 24-7, and never "think through" to salvation--our minds are depraved too. What did Jesus say to a Master Theologian, named Nicodemus? "You must be born again."

Why do we depend on 16th century reformers(?) to determine our doctrine? Is it possible that the doctrines of depravity and inability of man to do anything of merit were taught long before Luther, Chauvin and Arminius?

Look at the doctrines of the "heretics", if you can find them.

Total Depravity is not a "reformation" doctrine. It goes back to: "The Faith, once, for all delivered to the Saints."

You probably will not find this teaching on Mars Hill.:BangHead:

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[skypair]

The concept surely is found. Just two examples. Isaiah 64.6-7:

6 ¶ But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.
7 And there is no one who calls on Your name, Who stirs himself up to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us, And have consumed us because of our iniquities.​

Do you notice that "we all fade?" "Iniquities have taken us away?" The implication is 1) that we were not born totally depraved and 2) that we are BECOMING totally depraved though we never can get to that nadir!

Romans 3.10-18:

10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips";
14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."​

A quotation Paul takes from David's Psalm lamenting about his enemies, Psa 5:8. And 5:11 shows the free will alternative clear as day --- "But let those that put their trust in the Lord rejoice..." IOW, we can actually CHOOSE to do that as well!!

Lifting out of context is dangerous business, DL.

skypair

 

[Dale-c]

NOt sure what dictionaey you are using:

dogma |ˈdôgmə|
noun
a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true : the Christian dogma of the Trinity | the rejection of political dogma.
ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: via late Latin from Greek dogma ‘opinion,’ from dokein ‘seem good, think.’

 

[Martin]

You don't see it because you focus on the verses that do not demonstrate free will. How about "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved," etal.? Since it is NOT natural/instinctive to have one's heart changed, there is a thought process involved, martin, that you are ignoring.

==That is such a distorted view of Scripture. How can you just push aside clear statements like Romans 3:10-11 that state clearly that no man seeks after God and turn around and try to use a verse (Rom 10:13) that does not deal with free will to prove free will? I am simply amazed though I know I should not be.

Because changing the heart is very simple. It's a simple on the one hand and hardening it is on the other. On the one hand, you make the heart a gracious, desireable offer, losing your own life -- on the other, you keep offering the heart an unreasonable condition to salvation, giving up your life. Same offer! Different thoughts!

==So you think man softens his/her own heart without the work of God?

Why do Calvinists pray that? God doesn't change His mind. Seems to me it is Calvinists that pray like semi-Pelagians.

==Makes no sense.

 

[Martin]

Dogma is something that must be believed without understanding. It basically is a "gap" in knowledge that one's authorities tell you to ignore.

==I came to believe in "Calvinism" through reading the New Testament. Does that mean I believe dogma? I only agree with certain teachers because they agree with the Scriptures.

Universalism would say that all men are saved.

==Right, and if you claim that the drawing in Jn 6:44 and 12:32 are the same then you are backing yourself right into universalism.

Because Calvinism believes that drawing is always efficacious, it thinks that free will is claiming that everyone is saved.

==Wrong. I am accusing you of backing yourself into universalism because of your inconsistant approach to Scripture. You are claiming that John 6:44 and 12:32 are speaking of the same "drawing" yet you ignore the fact that, in John 6:44, the one drawn is the one raised to life. Free will only gets you bondage and not salvation.

That is simply not what drawing means at all. Drawing means attracting, in this case with something desireable --- salvation.

==The term used in John 6:44 for drawing is a bit stronger than that. However, even if it were not, Jesus clearly says about the one that is drawn that "I will raise him up".

Doesn't mean it is given

==As I pointed out. In John 6:37-45 we have several statements that bring us to the same conclusions. In John 6:37 those the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus, in John 6:40 those who believe will be raised up on the last day, in John 6:44 only those the Father draws to Jesus can come to Jesus, and in John 6:45 only those taught of the Father come to Jesus. Those the Father has given to Jesus will come to Jesus because the Father draws them to Jesus. It is the work of God. Coming to Jesus is an act of faith that results in Jesus giving them eternal life. Why does He give them eternal life? Because the Father has given them to Him and therefore they have believed in Him (Jn 17:2).

One reason is on account of this "drawing." Another is that God "hath put eternity in their hearts," Ecc 3:11, 14 and Rom 1:19-20.

==Those things are not enough to save anyone. The Scriptures never teach that. All those things do is add to the condemnation of the lost man who refuses to seek after the true God.

I'm curious -- does Calvinism account for these? That man can know there is a God? that man can know there is an eternity and still not want to live eternally?

==Yes, demons and the devil know those things yet even they still refuse God. The demons know, they tremble at their knowledge, but it does nothing to change their minds. Knowing there is a God, knowing there is a hell to avoid, is not enough to bring sinful man to God.

Of course we didn't take the first step. Who said we did? Jesus died for us -- God preached to us. We merely respond. How is responding a "first step" in your mind?

==Scripture clearly teaches that people don't believe, people can't believe, unless they are drawn by the Father and then they are raised up on the last day (Jn 6:44).

 

[webdog]

==That is such a distorted view of Scripture. How can you just push aside clear statements like Romans 3:10-11 that state clearly that no man seeks after God and turn around and try to use a verse (Rom 10:13) that does not deal with free will to prove free will? I am simply amazed though I know I should not be.

When Scripture says "as it was written...", it helps to go back and see where it was written. No man seeks after God flies in the face of contless Scriptures from God to man to seek Him.

 

[Dale-c]

When Scripture says "as it was written...", it helps to go back and see where it was written. No man seeks after God flies in the face of contless Scriptures from God to man to seek Him.

Where are there countless scriptures where God says man does seek him on his own?
I never saw those.

 

[webdog]

Where are there countless scriptures where God says man does seek him on his own?
I never saw those.

Did I ever say anything about seeking ON HIS OWN? Please, quit with the strawmen...

 

[Martin]

When Scripture says "as it was written...", it helps to go back and see where it was written. No man seeks after God flies in the face of contless Scriptures from God to man to seek Him.

==That is a shocking statement. What Scriptures contradict Romans 3:10-12? Please list them out.

Again I am amazed but again I know I should not be.

________________________

I am still waiting on your detailed response to:


Quote:
Originally Posted by skypair
Because Calvinism believes that drawing is always efficacious, it thinks that free will is claiming that everyone is saved.


==Wrong. I am accusing you of backing yourself into universalism because of your inconsistant approach to Scripture. You are claiming that John 6:44 and 12:32 are speaking of the same "drawing" yet you ignore the fact that, in John 6:44, the one drawn is the one raised to life. Free will only gets you bondage and not salvation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skypair
That is simply not what drawing means at all. Drawing means attracting, in this case with something desireable --- salvation.


==The term used in John 6:44 for drawing is a bit stronger than that. However, even if it were not, Jesus clearly says about the one that is drawn that "I will raise him up".


Quote:
Originally Posted by skypair
Doesn't mean it is given


==As I pointed out. In John 6:37-45 we have several statements that bring us to the same conclusions. In John 6:37 those the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus, in John 6:40 those who believe will be raised up on the last day, in John 6:44 only those the Father draws to Jesus can come to Jesus, and in John 6:45 only those taught of the Father come to Jesus. Those the Father has given to Jesus will come to Jesus because the Father draws them to Jesus. It is the work of God. Coming to Jesus is an act of faith that results in Jesus giving them eternal life. Why does He give them eternal life? Because the Father has given them to Him and therefore they have believed in Him (Jn 17:2).

 

[Dale-c]

Did I ever say anything about seeking ON HIS OWN? Please, quit with the strawmen...

Yes, you implied that. need to to quote? Ir you can just scroll up.

 

[David Lamb]

Lifting out of context is dangerous business, DL.

skypair

I agree. However, in every message on this Board that quotes scripture, this is done to an extent, otherwise we would need to paste the whole bible into every post.

 

[skypair]

I only agree with certain teachers because they agree with the Scriptures.

Whatever, martie. :tear:

==Right, and if you claim that the drawing in Jn 6:44 and 12:32 are the same then you are backing yourself right into universalism.

What are you saying --- that the word "draw" has a different meaning in these 2 verses? Show my how you derive that, pls.

==Wrong. I am accusing you of backing yourself into universalism because of your inconsistant approach to Scripture. You are claiming that John 6:44 and 12:32 are speaking of the same "drawing" yet you ignore the fact that, in John 6:44, the one drawn is the one raised to life. Free will only gets you bondage and not salvation.

All are drawn TOWARDS salvation in both verses. It just so happens that in 6:44, Jesus speaks concerning those who accept Christ.

Jesus clearly says about the one that is drawn that "I will raise him up".

Those that COME to Him will be raised up. The verse does NOT say that those who are drawn will be raised.

==Those things [drawing and eternity in their hearts] are not enough to save anyone. The Scriptures never teach that. All those things do is add to the condemnation of the lost man who refuses to seek after the true God.

Of course they aren't. You asked me how man could turn to God. I gave you some ways that the Bible tells us man knows --- is even without excuse. The ultimate thing is the Spirit in the word as you note.

==Yes, demons and the devil know those things yet even they still refuse God.

See, that shows how much you DON'T know. They are prevented from redemption, martie. It is not that they might now realize they were wrong and repent -- they CAN'T repent. God won't accept their repentance. It is like you after you die --- you can't change your mind either.

Knowing there is a God, knowing there is a hell to avoid, is not enough to bring sinful man to God.

That is part of the convicting of the Holy Spirit -- "of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. ... of judgment because the world is judged." I wish you would stop making these nonsensical remarks.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

Please close this thread and someone can start a new one on election/free-will. This was not an election/free-will thread.

 

[Martin]

What are you saying --- that the word "draw" has a different meaning in these 2 verses? Show my how you derive that, pls.

==The context determines what kind of drawing is occuring. So please, explain how you have not backed yourself into universalism.

All are drawn TOWARDS salvation in both verses. It just so happens that in 6:44, Jesus speaks concerning those who accept Christ.

==So you are claiming there are those who are drawn to Christ but do not accept Christ? Well that does not work. Your statement contradicts everything Jesus said in John 6:44 (also see vs65). Your statement turns everything Jesus said on its head. The whole point Jesus was making is that no one can come to Jesus unless they are drawn by the Father and if they are drawn they are raised. No one comes to Christ unless they are drawn by the Father and everyone drawn is raised to life. Why? Because Jesus said that nobody comes to Him unless they are drawn by the Father. Jesus also said that the one who is drawn is the one who is raised (Jn 6:44).

Those that COME to Him will be raised up. The verse does NOT say that those who are drawn will be raised.

==Well let's see: "No one comes to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (Jn 6:44). Who comes to Jesus? The one drawn. Notice that it is because a person is drawn that they come. Who is raised up by Jesus? The one who is drawn (the same as the one who comes).

See, that shows how much you DON'T know. They are prevented from redemption

==I never said they could be saved. That was not my point. Maybe you should re-read your comment and my response:

Originally Posted by skypair
I'm curious -- does Calvinism account for these? That man can know there is a God? that man can know there is an eternity and still not want to live eternally?


==Yes, demons and the devil know those things yet even they still refuse God. The demons know, they tremble at their knowledge, but it does nothing to change their minds. Knowing there is a God, knowing there is a hell to avoid, is not enough to bring sinful man to God.

You asked why a person can know there is a God (etc) and still not want to live eternally. I answered. Satan and demons are fallen angels. That means there was a time when they were not fallen. Given all they knew, an had seen, they still chose to sin. Mankind has been given plenty of light. Nobody is without excuse. Yet every person, of their own free will, rejects Christ. Therefore to save anyone God must first work in that person's life. Just holding out an offer would not work since no man seeks the true God on their own.

It is not that they might now realize they were wrong and repent -- they CAN'T repent. God won't accept their repentance. It is like you after you die --- you can't change your mind either.

==My point was along the same lines as James 2:19. Are you going to accuse James of not knowing something? Maybe you need to go back and show me these verses that you claimed contradict Romans 3:10-12 as well?

 

[Martin]

Please close this thread and someone can start a new one on election/free-will. This was not an election/free-will thread.

==Normally I would be more than glad to start a new thread considering how off topic this thread has gotten. However I have surgery (outpatient) Wednesday morning and I don't know when I will feel like posting again. Therefore it seems like a waste of time for me to start a new thread on this right now. Maybe I will feel like posting on Thursday, but I just don't know.

Just explaining why I continue to post in this thread and not open a new thread.

 

[npetreley]

==Normally I would be more than glad to start a new thread considering how off topic this thread has gotten. However I have surgery (outpatient) Wednesday morning and I don't know when I will feel like posting again. Therefore it seems like a waste of time for me to start a new thread on this right now. Maybe I will feel like posting on Thursday, but I just don't know.

Just explaining why I continue to post in this thread and not open a new thread.

Go ahead and stick with this thread then. You'll be in my thoughts and prayers re: the surgery.

 

[webdog]

Yes, you implied that. need to to quote? Ir you can just scroll up.

better yet, I'll supply it for you. Never even implied that...

No man seeks after God flies in the face of contless Scriptures from God to man to seek Him.

 

[webdog]

==Normally I would be more than glad to start a new thread considering how off topic this thread has gotten. However I have surgery (outpatient) Wednesday morning and I don't know when I will feel like posting again. Therefore it seems like a waste of time for me to start a new thread on this right now. Maybe I will feel like posting on Thursday, but I just don't know.

Just explaining why I continue to post in this thread and not open a new thread.

...praying your surgery goes well...

 

[David Lamb]

Please close this thread and someone can start a new one on election/free-will. This was not an election/free-will thread.

Please accept my apologies for deviating (in my replies to messages on this thread) from the original subject. Sorry.