Total Depravity = Hardening?

[DHK]

MB>
This hysterical statement places you outside the historic faith.

That "historic faith" that you refer to can only be traced back to that good ole Catholic "St. Augustine," and then it was popularized by Calvin. We don't find it taught by the Apostles or the early Christians.

 

[Iconoclast]

That "historic faith" that you refer to can only be traced back to that good ole Catholic "St. Augustine," and then it was popularized by Calvin. We don't find it taught by the Apostles or the early Christians.

It is the apostolic teaching......Paul spoke of it very clearly to young and old alike in All of his epistles.The verses in John are the actual words of Jesus teaching on these truths. Because they did not use theological terms does not mean they did not believe the teaching.They were used by God to give us the teaching.

DHK....when I posted ezk 34 where God says He is going to seek and save the lost,and he keeps saying I will gather, I will save, how does your teaching rework the passage...I will quote and highlight again for you.....I think Ezekiel was also a calvinist.

6My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

7Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

8As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

9Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

10Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. 12As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

13And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

14I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

15I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.

16I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is the apostolic teaching......Paul spoke of it very clearly to young and old alike in All of his epistles.The verses in John are the actual words of Jesus teaching on these truths. Because they did not use theological terms does not mean they did not believe the teaching.They were used by God to give us the teaching.

DHK....when I posted ezk 34 where God says He is going to seek and save the lost,and he keeps saying I will gather, I will save, how does your teaching rework the passage...I will quote and highlight again for you.....I think Ezekiel was also a calvinist.

Watch out Icon my Brother, Catholics also claim good ole Paul, Peter & John as their fathers so they naturally conclude that Reformed Theology will turn to Catholicism because they're is linkage :laugh: BTW Catholics believe in Christ too. Guess by that logic we Reformed types are guilty as charged..... :laugh::laugh::jesus:

 

[DHK]

It is the apostolic teaching......Paul spoke of it very clearly to young and old alike in All of his epistles.The verses in John are the actual words of Jesus teaching on these truths. Because they did not use theological terms does not mean they did not believe the teaching.They were used by God to give us the teaching.

DHK....when I posted ezk 34 where God says He is going to seek and save the lost,and he keeps saying I will gather, I will save, how does your teaching rework the passage...I will quote and highlight again for you.....I think Ezekiel was also a calvinist.

No, you have taken what Ezekiel has written and put in a totally different context. That is not rightly dividing the word of truth. It is not good hermeneutics.
First look at the context. Notice that you did not quote the first two verses:

And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? (Ezekiel 34:1-2)

This entire passage is to the shepherds of Israel, and has nothing to do with us whatsoever. Israel was already God's chosen nation. Its leaders were leading it astray. The parallel is if an evangelist (prophet) were to come into your church and preach to your people indicating that your pastor is leading your people astray. The shepherds (pastors) were leading their flocks astray. They were caught up in false error. This has nothing to do with this subject.

 

[Iconoclast]

No, you have taken what Ezekiel has written and put in a totally different context. That is not rightly dividing the word of truth. It is not good hermeneutics.
First look at the context. Notice that you did not quote the first two verses:

And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? (Ezekiel 34:1-2)

This entire passage is to the shepherds of Israel, and has nothing to do with us whatsoever. Israel was already God's chosen nation. Its leaders were leading it astray. The parallel is if an evangelist (prophet) were to come into your church and preach to your people indicating that your pastor is leading your people astray. The shepherds (pastors) were leading their flocks astray. They were caught up in false error. This has nothing to do with this subject.

DHK,
yes Ezk 34 is spoken to Israel before the cross.
Not all Israel was Israel. Jesus comes to His own...His own receive him not.jn1
Jesus in Jn 10 identifies Himself as the the Good shepherd.
in Lk19 he says he has come to seek and to save that which is lost.

Israels rebellion causes the covenant curses of Deut28-33 to come upon the nation.
Jesus is the True Israel......and us in Him. Isa49:1-8
Mt21:43

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

So not only was the elect remnant in view in ezk 34, but all the sheep given in covenant to the Son.

23And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

25And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

26And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.

27And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

28And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

29And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

30Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD.

31And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.

We are grafted into the same covenant. Do you agree?

DHK.....this is why the teaching all stands together.Jesus dies for the sheep, not the goats.
[/QUOTE]

 

[DHK]

DHK,

We are grafted into the same covenant. Do you agree?

No, not in the way that you have described it. For example, John the Baptist is from the old covenant. Jesus describes him as a friend of the bridegroom, but not part of the bride. The OT saints were of a different covenant. You cannot lump in the OT saints with the NT saints.

DHK.....this is why the teaching all stands together.Jesus dies for the sheep, not the goats.

The sheep in the OT was the nation of Israel. Therefore, according to your theology, your logic, what happened to:
Rahab the harlot,
Ruth the Moabite
and even the entire nation of Nineveh which repented at the preaching of Noah?

These were not of the nation of Israel. But Ruth and Rahab are in the genealogy of Christ in spite of their ancestry--their ancestry of being goats.

 

[Skandelon]

I have a life outside this forum and tend not to involve myself in enormously long threads. You asked why no one had responded to you. I did respond. End of story. You don't have to like my response for it to be a response.

Steve

In the time you took to write that you could have answered my question. I think that alone reveals more than anything you have stated thus far about your intent to respond to the question of the OP.

Anyone, can quote a few verses and say "it is a difficult subject" and claim they have "answered" any question posed on a thread. But I've learned that strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the portions ignored.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

No, not in the way that you have described it. For example, John the Baptist is from the old covenant. Jesus describes him as a friend of the bridegroom, but not part of the bride. The OT saints were of a different covenant. You cannot lump in the OT saints with the NT saints.

The sheep in the OT was the nation of Israel. Therefore, according to your theology, your logic, what happened to:
Rahab the harlot,
Ruth the Moabite
and even the entire nation of Nineveh which repented at the preaching of Noah?

These were not of the nation of Israel. But Ruth and Rahab are in the genealogy of Christ in spite of their ancestry--their ancestry of being goats.

Gentiles came in as proselytes in the OT.

DHK, we are grafted in to the Abrahamic covenant.....In Christ

16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith

8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

13Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Do you see it now? Jesus is the promised seed...singular...Gal3:16-29
We are in Him, In the New Covenant we receive better promises but Jew and gentile are now one new man In Christ.
DHK...this is why we defend the truth of covenant atonement as the truth of God. Anything that detracts from it,we believe detracts from God's eternal purpose.

 

[DHK]

DHK, we are grafted in to the Abrahamic covenant.....In Christ

Salvation is by faith. Abraham was justified by faith; so are we.
It does not matter if one is a Jew or Gentile, salvation is by faith; it is for all; all who believe; and therefore Christ atoned for all. It could be no other way.

Do you see it now? Jesus is the promised seed...singular...Gal3:16-29

Yes, he is the seed of the woman, born of a virgin, conceived of the Holy Spirit. He is the God-man; sinless man and deity at the same time. For that reason he could pay the penalty for the sins of all mankind at the cross. He did not limit himself to just a few. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. The whosoever includes all who call upon him, not just a few.

We are in Him, In the New Covenant we receive better promises but Jew and gentile are now one new man In Christ.

That is true. Both Jew and Gentile are now one in Christ. It is that way because salvation is by faith in Christ. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Christ made provision for all in the world to be saved, not just a few.

DHK...this is why we defend the truth of covenant atonement as the truth of God. Anything that detracts from it,we believe detracts from God's eternal purpose.

It is the atonement that needs to be defended as it is clearly set forth in 1John 2:2--He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
It is a wonderful truth isn't it?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In the time you took to write that you could have answered my question.

I have looked again at my post and I am quite happy with what I've written. Your problem is that you don't really understand what Calvinism is. You, along with quite a few others on this forum, are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother, Hypercalvin. Therefore your arguments don't really pertain to what I wrote.

However, If I have time, I'll have another look at your posts tomorrow and write something more detailed in reply. It's past bed-time in England now. :sleep:

Steve

 

[Skandelon]

In the time you took to write that you could have answered my question.

I have looked again at my post and I am quite happy with what I've written. Your problem is that you don't really understand what Calvinism is. You, along with quite a few others on this forum, are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother, Hypercalvin. Therefore your arguments don't really pertain to what I wrote.

Prove it. I'm tired of the accusation that I don't understand Calvinism, when most of the Calvinists here don't even agree with each other on many of the different nuances of their complex dogma (which is true of those in the Arminian camp as well). General blanket accusations with specific quotes are useless and unfounded. Nothing I wrote even comes close to presuming hyperism, but if it did then quote it and make your case instead of making unfounded charges.

Calvinists presume things about what I believe all the time and I point out their error and explain why. I do NOT merely dismiss them as not understanding my views as you have done. With all due respect, I honestly believe that is worse cop out than merely claiming you don't have enough time to defend your position while taking time to tell us you don't have time.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Prove it. I'm tired of the accusation that I don't understand Calvinism, when most of the Calvinists here don't even agree with each other on many of the different nuances of their complex dogma (which is true of those in the Arminian camp as well). General blanket accusations with specific quotes are useless and unfounded. Nothing I wrote even comes close to presuming hyperism, but if it did then quote it and make your case instead of making unfounded charges.

Calvinists presume things about what I believe all the time and I point out their error and explain why. I do NOT merely dismiss them as not understanding my views as you have done. With all due respect, I honestly believe that is worse cop out than merely claiming you don't have enough time to defend your position while taking time to tell us you don't have time.

Wow.....you may want to switch to decaf. :tongue3:

 

[Robert Snow]

Not so Robert.....when I read romans 8 romans 9 and ephesians 1, eph 3 I believed God as He reveals Himself as the true and living God who has revealed His eternal plan to the the church.
Did not even know of Calvin or the puritans before seeing the truth of scripture, although there was still much more to learn.

I don't believe you.

 

[Robert Snow]

I could say the same about you but then that would be accusing, right.

I'm sure you think this of me, but it doesn't matter. I don't care! I know that the scripture doesn't support Calvinism. End of story.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't believe you.

Robert,
I assure you it is true...i am an ex catholic,,,,,never heard or read any theology before the bible.
started reading to find out all the mistakes and errors i thought were in it.
God showed me I was in error,convicted me of my sin and saved me.

I was not going to any church ,but was secretly reading in my own little house. I was ashamed to be reading a bible until God saved me. I did not know the old from the NT.
I was completely naive....did not know how to look up a verse...jn3:16
did not know what the letters and numbers meant,
I thought cults were christians, mormons jws....
i am glad God did not cut me off in my sin. I am thankful he had purposed to save me before the world was.

I did eventually learn some things after a few years...started listening to tapes from Dallas seminary,and other ministries.
That is what happened. By the time I found out about this supposed debate I had already embraced ephesians and romans so there was never any real debate to me.

When I learned of this supposed debate...I have tried to read the best of the other position at all times,and it convinces more and more of it's error.

One of the first sermons i heard that helped me really learn and focus on these theological issues , i heard over the radio one night.here it is; scroll down to WR>DOWNING on particular redemption..the whole series is very instructive.

http://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/am_grace.htm

 

[jbh28]

I don't believe you.

I'm sure you think this of me, but it doesn't matter. I don't care! I know that the scripture doesn't support Calvinism. End of story.

It's called different interpretations. You don't interpret Scriptures properl...I mean the same way we do. Those of us that have a calvinistic view point got our doctrine from the Bible. Saying our doctrine doesn't come from the Bible isn't approaching this very honestly. It's a matter of interpretation. I believe you get your doctrine from the Bible, just don't interpret passages the same.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm sure you think this of me, but it doesn't matter. I don't care! I know that the scripture doesn't support Calvinism. End of story.

The story never ends brother. Not when you disrespect the other side & harden your own heart. Personally I could care less what you think about me, my beliefs etc. you are the one always accusing, heranging & disputing. Your post proves that out & proves you have a difficult time getting along with others & respecting another's beliefs. Well, Calvinism & Reformed Theology have been around since before you & will be here after your demise. Deal with that.:laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Prove it. I'm tired of the accusation that I don't understand Calvinism, when most of the Calvinists here don't even agree with each other on many of the different nuances of their complex dogma (which is true of those in the Arminian camp as well). General blanket accusations with specific quotes are useless and unfounded. Nothing I wrote even comes close to presuming hyperism, but if it did then quote it and make your case instead of making unfounded charges.

Calvinists presume things about what I believe all the time and I point out their error and explain why. I do NOT merely dismiss them as not understanding my views as you have done. With all due respect, I honestly believe that is worse cop out than merely claiming you don't have enough time to defend your position while taking time to tell us you don't have time.

Martin....Seriously my brother, with an attitude like this, I would not waste my time. There is no respect here .....just frustration & accusation. Not worth the key strokes. Have a nice weekend.:thumbsup:

 

[Robert Snow]

Robert,
I assure you it is true...i am an ex catholic,,,,,never heard or read any theology before the bible.
started reading to find out all the mistakes and errors i thought were in it.
God showed me I was in error,convicted me of my sin and saved me.

I was not going to any church ,but was secretly reading in my own little house. I was ashamed to be reading a bible until God saved me. I did not know the old from the NT.
I was completely naive....did not know how to look up a verse...jn3:16
did not know what the letters and numbers meant,
I thought cults were christians, mormons jws....
i am glad God did not cut me off in my sin. I am thankful he had purposed to save me before the world was.

I believe this.

I did eventually learn some things after a few years...started listening to tapes from Dallas seminary,and other ministries.
That is what happened. By the time I found out about this supposed debate I had already embraced ephesians and romans so there was never any real debate to me.

When I learned of this supposed debate...I have tried to read the best of the other position at all times,and it convinces more and more of it's error.

One of the first sermons i heard that helped me really learn and focus on these theological issues , i heard over the radio one night.here it is; scroll down to WR>DOWNING on particular redemption..the whole series is very instructive.

So it did take coaching by a Calvinist to convince you that Calvinism was true. Like I said, no one comes to this belief system without outside influence.

 

[Robert Snow]

The story never ends brother. Not when you disrespect the other side & harden your own heart. Personally I could care less what you think about me, my beliefs etc. you are the one always accusing, heranging & disputing. Your post proves that out & proves you have a difficult time getting along with others & respecting another's beliefs. Well, Calvinism & Reformed Theology have been around since before you & will be here after your demise. Deal with that.:laugh:

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism and the Seventh-Day Adventists have been around longer than me or you. I reject these teachings as well. Like Calvinism, they claim to be sound biblical doctrines, and indeed they can show bible verses that support their systems. However, when totality of scripture is viewed, their beliefs fall apart.