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(Deleted, I keep pushing the wrong button. sorry...
[ September 17, 2002, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
[ September 17, 2002, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
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Total Depravity
- Thread starter D B Cook
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F
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Let's do it. Thread set up and ready.
Click here to Teach me Calvinism
[ September 17, 2002, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
Bible-belted
New Member
Chappie,
If you think that the "freewill offering" means what you do by "Free Will" in soteriology then you have bigger problems than just a misunderstanding of Calvanism. You don't understand Free Will either!
You also missed the point of whatI was saying.
Do you believe in the Trinity? That word isn't in the Bible.
Simply put: the absence of a term which summarises ideas and scriptures is irrelevant. Like it or nt, the ideas summarised by the convenient terms you decry ARE there, even if the terms themselves are not.
Do you seriously think that a movement like theReformation tyat was so interested in Sola Scriptura would tolerate ideas becoming so important that were NOT based in Scripture? Such is an unreasonable thought.
And I've been to your thread.
If you think that the "freewill offering" means what you do by "Free Will" in soteriology then you have bigger problems than just a misunderstanding of Calvanism. You don't understand Free Will either!
You also missed the point of whatI was saying.
Do you believe in the Trinity? That word isn't in the Bible.
Simply put: the absence of a term which summarises ideas and scriptures is irrelevant. Like it or nt, the ideas summarised by the convenient terms you decry ARE there, even if the terms themselves are not.
Do you seriously think that a movement like theReformation tyat was so interested in Sola Scriptura would tolerate ideas becoming so important that were NOT based in Scripture? Such is an unreasonable thought.
And I've been to your thread.
Ray Berrian
New Member
We are depraved but not totally. . . Why did John say about Jesus that He is' . . . the true Light which lighteth every person coming into the world?' How does He bring light to us at our birth? Notice, not too many Bible commentators interpret this verse. I have read about four men that gives us some ideas about this verse. Interesting!
F
ForumChaplain
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Ah, my good man: What part of "FREE" & "WILL", have a different meaning in your soteriology. First you said that freewill was not in the bible, now you say it does not mean what it really says. And then you call me confused.
The word, "freewill" is in the bible, now show me total depravity, irristible grace/efficacious grace. Do that or atleast show me a scripture that cannot be soteriocally/logically intrepreted to mean to mean anything else. Reply with scriptures or don't bother. You are an argueing machine and not a very good one at that...
And you hath he quickened,.... The design of the apostle in this and some following verses, is to show the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and to set forth the sad estate and condition of man by nature, and to magnify the riches of the grace of God, and represent the exceeding greatness of his power in conversion: the phrase
hath he quickened, is not in the original text, but is supplied from Eph 2:5, where it will be met with and explained: here those who are quickened with Christ, and by the power and grace of God, are described in their natural and unregenerate estate,
who were dead in trespasses and sins; not only dead in Adam, in whom they sinned, being their federal head and representative; and in a legal sense, the sentence of condemnation and death having passed upon them; but in a moral sense, through original sin, and their own actual transgressions: which death lies in a separation from God, Father, Son, and Spirit, such are without God, and are alienated from the life of God, and they are without Christ, who is the author and giver of life, and they are sensual, not having the Spirit, who is the spirit of life; and in a deformation of the image of God, such are dead as to their understandings, wills, and affections, with respect to spiritual things, and as to their capacity to do any thing that is spiritually good; and in a loss of original righteousness; and in a privation of the sense of sin and misery; and in a servitude to sin, Satan, and the world: hence it appears, that man must be in himself unacceptable to God, infectious and hurtful to his fellow creatures, and incapable of helping himself: so it was usual with the Jews to call a wicked and ignorant man, a dead man; they say {i},... When you need someone to explain Total Depravity John Gill is the man... Brother Glen
[ September 18, 2002, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
hath he quickened, is not in the original text, but is supplied from Eph 2:5, where it will be met with and explained: here those who are quickened with Christ, and by the power and grace of God, are described in their natural and unregenerate estate,
who were dead in trespasses and sins; not only dead in Adam, in whom they sinned, being their federal head and representative; and in a legal sense, the sentence of condemnation and death having passed upon them; but in a moral sense, through original sin, and their own actual transgressions: which death lies in a separation from God, Father, Son, and Spirit, such are without God, and are alienated from the life of God, and they are without Christ, who is the author and giver of life, and they are sensual, not having the Spirit, who is the spirit of life; and in a deformation of the image of God, such are dead as to their understandings, wills, and affections, with respect to spiritual things, and as to their capacity to do any thing that is spiritually good; and in a loss of original righteousness; and in a privation of the sense of sin and misery; and in a servitude to sin, Satan, and the world: hence it appears, that man must be in himself unacceptable to God, infectious and hurtful to his fellow creatures, and incapable of helping himself: so it was usual with the Jews to call a wicked and ignorant man, a dead man; they say {i},... When you need someone to explain Total Depravity John Gill is the man... Brother Glen
[ September 18, 2002, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
Hath quickened us together with Christ: which may be understood either of regeneration, when a soul that is dead in a moral or spiritual sense, is quickened and made alive; a principle of life is infused, and acts of life are put forth; such have their spiritual senses, and these in exercise; they can feel the load and weight of sin; see their lost state and condition, the odiousness of sin, and the beauty of a Saviour, the insufficiency of their own righteousness, and the fulness and suitableness of Christ's; breathe after divine and spiritual things; speak in prayer to God, and the language of Canaan to fellow Christians; move towards Christ, exercise grace on him, act for him, and walk on in him: and this life they have not from themselves, for previous to it they are dead, and in this quickening work are entirely passive; nor can regenerate persons quicken themselves, when in dead and lifeless frames, and much less unregenerate sinners; but this is God's act, the act of God the Father; though not exclusive of the Son, who quickens whom he will; nor of the Spirit, who is the Spirit of life from Christ;
and it is an instance of the exceeding greatness, both of his power and love; and this may be said to be done with Christ, because he is the procuring and meritorious cause of it, by his death and resurrection from the dead; and is the author and efficient cause of it; and he is the matter of it, it is not so much the quickened persons that live, as Christ that lives in them, and it is the same life he himself lives; and because he lives, they shall live also; it is in him as in the fountain, and in them as in the stream: or else this may be understood of justification; men are dead in a legal sense, and on account of sin, are under the sentence of death; though they naturally think themselves alive, and in a good state; but when the Spirit of God comes, he strikes dead all their hopes of life by a covenant of works; not merely by letting in the terrors of the law upon the conscience, but by showing the spirituality of it, and the exceeding sinfulness of sin; and how incapable they are of satisfying the law, for the transgressions of it; and then he works faith in them, whereby they revive and live; they see pardon and righteousness in Christ, and pray for the one, and plead the other; and also lay hold and live upon the righteousness of Christ, when the Spirit seals up the pardon of their sins to them, and passes the sentence of justification on them, and so they reckon themselves alive unto God; and this is the justification of life, the Scripture speaks of; and this is in consequence of their being quickened with Christ, at the time of his resurrection; for when he rose from the dead, they rose with him; when he was justified, they were justified in him; and in this sense when he was quickened, they were quickened with him:
Not only does the following article show our Total Depravity but this article from John Gill shows how the sons and daughters of God are brought out of it... Quickened with Christ... Brother Glen
[ September 18, 2002, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
and it is an instance of the exceeding greatness, both of his power and love; and this may be said to be done with Christ, because he is the procuring and meritorious cause of it, by his death and resurrection from the dead; and is the author and efficient cause of it; and he is the matter of it, it is not so much the quickened persons that live, as Christ that lives in them, and it is the same life he himself lives; and because he lives, they shall live also; it is in him as in the fountain, and in them as in the stream: or else this may be understood of justification; men are dead in a legal sense, and on account of sin, are under the sentence of death; though they naturally think themselves alive, and in a good state; but when the Spirit of God comes, he strikes dead all their hopes of life by a covenant of works; not merely by letting in the terrors of the law upon the conscience, but by showing the spirituality of it, and the exceeding sinfulness of sin; and how incapable they are of satisfying the law, for the transgressions of it; and then he works faith in them, whereby they revive and live; they see pardon and righteousness in Christ, and pray for the one, and plead the other; and also lay hold and live upon the righteousness of Christ, when the Spirit seals up the pardon of their sins to them, and passes the sentence of justification on them, and so they reckon themselves alive unto God; and this is the justification of life, the Scripture speaks of; and this is in consequence of their being quickened with Christ, at the time of his resurrection; for when he rose from the dead, they rose with him; when he was justified, they were justified in him; and in this sense when he was quickened, they were quickened with him:
Not only does the following article show our Total Depravity but this article from John Gill shows how the sons and daughters of God are brought out of it... Quickened with Christ... Brother Glen
[ September 18, 2002, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
F
ForumChaplain
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Who is "us", how do we become a part of "us". Now that is the question that should concern you unless you have a passage of scripture woth your name on it....
And God has done all this in your life, but he would not touch that other fella. Don't brag now... Humility, humility, humility...
[ September 23, 2002, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
Ray Berrian
New Member
After the flood God blessed Noah and his posterity. In the nineth chapter of Genesis we find God reaffirming that human beings are made ' . . . in the image of God.' Also, in James 3:9 He wants us to know that we were born after His likeness.
I don't think that anyone would disagree that God has intelligence and a will to do that which is within the parimeters of His perfect nature. Admittedly, we have an Adamic nature received a conception but most of us have the intelligence, conscience and will-- to hear the truth and believe it just as we believe that President Bush is preparing his generals for war. Some don't believe we are going to war, but that is their opinion.
So too, many hear the Gospel and for various reasons and either neglect or reject that which is in line with the truth coming from God. On the other hand, some do believe thoroughly that Jesus died for their sins and believe on His most precious Name and Being.
My main point was when you can deny me the right to believe in the references in Genesis and
James, then I will be free to believe in Total Depravity. I will agree that we are depraved but not to the extent that sinners cannot repent after being drawn by the Spirit Who is the source of our new and resurrected life in Jesus Christ.
I don't think that anyone would disagree that God has intelligence and a will to do that which is within the parimeters of His perfect nature. Admittedly, we have an Adamic nature received a conception but most of us have the intelligence, conscience and will-- to hear the truth and believe it just as we believe that President Bush is preparing his generals for war. Some don't believe we are going to war, but that is their opinion.
So too, many hear the Gospel and for various reasons and either neglect or reject that which is in line with the truth coming from God. On the other hand, some do believe thoroughly that Jesus died for their sins and believe on His most precious Name and Being.
My main point was when you can deny me the right to believe in the references in Genesis and
James, then I will be free to believe in Total Depravity. I will agree that we are depraved but not to the extent that sinners cannot repent after being drawn by the Spirit Who is the source of our new and resurrected life in Jesus Christ.
Primitive Baptist
New Member
God knows that I don't want to misrepresent what anybody believes, so let me state the non-Calvinist position, as I understand it, and get some feedback from the non-Calvinists.
All men are sinners by nature because of Adam's disobedience. Sinners cannot come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, but they can reject to come when they are drawn. God loves every man without exception, and, therefore, He will draw all men without exception, giving them a chance to be saved by grace.
P.S. - If you post text from the Scriptures, please explain what you mean. There are 10,000 interpretations of one text!
[ September 23, 2002, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
All men are sinners by nature because of Adam's disobedience. Sinners cannot come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, but they can reject to come when they are drawn. God loves every man without exception, and, therefore, He will draw all men without exception, giving them a chance to be saved by grace.
P.S. - If you post text from the Scriptures, please explain what you mean. There are 10,000 interpretations of one text!
[ September 23, 2002, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
Primitive Baptist
New Member
Primitive Baptist
New Member
I wish a non-Calvinist would affirm or deny the above statement.
F
ForumChaplain
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All men are sinners by nature because of Adam's disobedience. No man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, yet this drawing does not always result in faith. God loves all men. His gospel has the power to draw all men allowing them a chance to be saved by grace.
[ September 25, 2002, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
[ September 25, 2002, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
KenH
Well-Known Member
God has never and will never fail to draw a person whom He is drawing to Himself. There is no Scripture to support the idea that everyone has to be given a chance to come to Christ by hearing the gospel message. If that was the case, then the next step would be to say that everyone would have to hear the gospel an equal number of times with the same life experience and environment so that everyone was on a level playing field.
Christian regards,
Ken
A Spurgeonite
[ September 25, 2002, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
Christian regards,
Ken
A Spurgeonite
[ September 25, 2002, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
Primitive Baptist
New Member
Chappie, will God draw every man without exception some time during their natural life on earth? Will every man without exception hear the preaching of the gospel some time during their natural life on earth? If no, why does God not draw every man during their natural life on earth?
Ray Berrian
New Member
While it is true that human beings are depraved and defiled with an Adamic nature, it is also true that no everyone is about to explode and go do some heinous crime.
God lights each human being with the light of His Being [John 1:9] so that we are not only born in the Image of God, [James 3:9] we have a conscience that knows right from wrong. We are told not to curse another human being because we are of such an intrinsic value that God forbids that we do this.
Notice you never have to prove to a small child that Jesus is their Friend. They intuitively now this. It is only as the years pass that the sinner begins to destroy his or her conscience. This is not the fault of the Lord but of the human being.
So with being enlightened since birth and being in the Image of God, plus the working of the Holy Spirit on the sinner, no one can say that God is not able to touch the life of a sinner effectually before salvation. When people say this, they are suggesting that God the Spirit is weak and does not have the capacity to convict and convince the sinner of impending judgment.[John 16:8] Why would God reprove the sinner of his sin if He had not touched the human heart/life? Why would God remind sinners of a righteous God if they did not clearly understand Him? Why would God point to a future Judgment if the sinner could not fathom the concept. The truth is humankind is enlightened and alerted to their rendevous with the Living God when their lives are over here.
This should be more than enough to persuade someone with Calvinistic leanings that indeed the Lord does touch the human soul, before the sinner says yes to God, and then is regenerated and adopted into the family of God.
Do I hear a witness to the truth?
God lights each human being with the light of His Being [John 1:9] so that we are not only born in the Image of God, [James 3:9] we have a conscience that knows right from wrong. We are told not to curse another human being because we are of such an intrinsic value that God forbids that we do this.
Notice you never have to prove to a small child that Jesus is their Friend. They intuitively now this. It is only as the years pass that the sinner begins to destroy his or her conscience. This is not the fault of the Lord but of the human being.
So with being enlightened since birth and being in the Image of God, plus the working of the Holy Spirit on the sinner, no one can say that God is not able to touch the life of a sinner effectually before salvation. When people say this, they are suggesting that God the Spirit is weak and does not have the capacity to convict and convince the sinner of impending judgment.[John 16:8] Why would God reprove the sinner of his sin if He had not touched the human heart/life? Why would God remind sinners of a righteous God if they did not clearly understand Him? Why would God point to a future Judgment if the sinner could not fathom the concept. The truth is humankind is enlightened and alerted to their rendevous with the Living God when their lives are over here.
This should be more than enough to persuade someone with Calvinistic leanings that indeed the Lord does touch the human soul, before the sinner says yes to God, and then is regenerated and adopted into the family of God.
Do I hear a witness to the truth?
Ray here is your witness to the truth!
Psalm 58: 1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
I have just given you a witness... Scripture says they are totally depraved as soon as they are born... Now does scripture lie or is YOUR interpretation in error?... Brother Glen
Psalm 58: 1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
I have just given you a witness... Scripture says they are totally depraved as soon as they are born... Now does scripture lie or is YOUR interpretation in error?... Brother Glen
F
ForumChaplain
Guest
Every man will be ministered to by the Holy Spirit in this lifetime, and every man will have an opportunity to be saved. Now dat's da facts jack...
Have a blessed day.
God loves you.....
How do i know that, God loves everybody, yess i know, cause da bible tells me so..
KenH
Well-Known Member
(Psalm 5:5 NKJV) The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
(Psalm 11:5 NKJV) The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
I see the non-Calvinists are still running away from these verses.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
(Psalm 11:5 NKJV) The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
I see the non-Calvinists are still running away from these verses.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
ScottEmerson
Active Member
Shhh... Keep this a secret.... Look up the Hebrew word for hate. See what definitions it has. Can you guess what definition would apply here, or at least those of us who see GOd as a God of inifinite love would use?