Total Depravity...

Calvinist do not deny this. Most all Calvinist would say that they hear with the ears but not the heart. I think we call this the general and effectual call.

 

Interesting...

Ya know, I never even considered that. :laugh:
But I can see your point and admit you have an interesting one.

It is of import also to note that a Carnal Christian is a contradiction in terms. That was part of Pauls point.
The fact that Paul states he must speak to them not spiritually but naturally, says alot about their spiritual nature to which Paul was addressing and that he obviously thought they could/would be able to hear in a meaningful way or positive way.

 

First off, PL, you're not going to change anyone's perceptions and it is not the point of the thread so stick to the topic, please. About the only thing you can accomplish is to say YOU don't agree and maybe state you do not fit other people's preception of Calvinists. You are defending a theology with many "warts," sir. You want the truth to be taught regardless of what it is called, right?

See, you can in no wise "apologize" for Calvinists in this way KNOWING that they see regeneration and election before salvation and that there is NO salvation apart from "election" (ergo, not your faith but God's).

This is a perfect example of "drop the labels" and seek the truth. We don't need to rehash what "some" Calvinists do or don't believe.

Again, you appear to depart from Calvinism on this (at least from johnp, petrely, rb, etc.) and then to claim that we accuse Calvinism falsely! Basically, if you believe this, then let yourself out of Calvin's "prison!" :laugh:

skypair

 

I haven't read this whole thread, but I did want to comment on this use of this passage.
Problem with that view is that Paul did not say that they were not spiritual as is the case with the natural man. He was telling them that were acting like the natural man even though they had the spirit of God as believers.
That was his beef with them.
He goes on in 3:16 to confirm that they do indeed have God's Spirit living within them, so he obviously did not consider them in the same category as the "natural man", positionally speaking.

 

Good morning as well.

Actaully scripture shows two types of people. Those who flee the light because they love the darkness. And those who come to the light. So it is not just one verdict but two types of people and therefore two types of verdicts.
And yes it does bring us back to whole point of Jesus becoming flesh for man; You must be born-again.

What I was simply showing however is that God so loved the World (wicked sinful mankind) that He gave His only begotten Son (TO the World) that whosoever (of the WORLD) believes in Him, should not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus was given to the world because God loved the world (instead of judically hating it), but only those of the world who believed are the benificiaries of the gift of that love and those who do not believe receive the only other alternitive for their unbelief - Perish/Damnation.

 

Except most Calvinists deny there is a potential for salvation and that blindness and hardness is what makes a person NOT believe.

I was showing the contrary in each of those posts I showed.

 

So grace is "resistible?" C'mon, rb -- does it make sense to you that one who has the Holy Spirit can yet resist saving grace?

skypair

 

You forgot to put "In my humble opinion," rb! :laugh: Or do you find 2 different words in the Bible and in the context for your assertion?

skypair

 

Does He love those who are not His? Those whom He sends to hell?

 

Well actually I think we would not say that God potentially saved His people, but actually accomplished it on the cross. I agree that blindness and hardness is what makes a person not believe.

 

Paul was speaking to the Church as whole. There were some who needed admonishment and others needed strengthening due to the corruptness that crept into the Church. Yes, he told them they (as a whole) are the church [built up] as a temple. If any man defile the temple (the church), him will God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, just as ye are the Temple.

 

The uses of the word 'world' should have (wicked sinful mankind except Israel) Allan.

john.

 

No, it doesn't. Neither does it seem to fit the definition of prevenient grace as defined by true Arminianism (as opposed to free-willism, which is often confused with Arminianism but does not really resemble it).

RB started a new thread on the definition of and scriptural support for prevenient grace. That's probably the best place to address it.

 

I agree that does not potentially do anything per say.
But the fact remains that scripture states if diverse places those who were/are/or will be lost COULD have been saved. Even Jesus stated this :

Paul also speaks to it in a couple of places but most specifically (since it is one spoke of by me frequently)

Additionally:

How then do you reconsile the verses that state blindness and hardening come AFTER they reject Gods revealed truth. At which point (AFTER their rejection) God gives them over to...the lie and NOT before.

(Romans 1:18-32, 2 Thes 2:2-12, and the parallelsim of Eph 4:17-19 with the other two) For starters.

 

I found an interesting quote from Wesley in his work on original sin:

 

Israel was elected for/to Purpose Not salvation.
Even you state - Not all Israel are Israel. But we know that ALL Israelites are elected in the national sense.

But that aside:
Israel as individuals are also is wicked, sinful, disobedient and a gainsaying people. I think...yep, that falls under the definitions of 'World' Biblically.
So they to fall under the scope of all being in sin and needing a Savior.

 

Hear from God - believe - receive faith is not the basics of salvation?

"Man" (general) had already been included in "wickedness continually." God was going to destroy ALL men. (cont.)

Not true. AFTER God thought to destroy all men (6:7), THEN Noah found grace in His eyes (6:8). To me, Gen 6:7-8 parallels 6:12-13. Same pattern. Gen 6:12-13 says God found ALL corrupt (6:12), then He warned to Noah (6:13). Gen 6:13 explains HOW Noah found grace in God's eyes. This tells us when and how Noah believed and received faith. Do you see what I mean?

So now you are appealing to "election??"

I think this is very reminiscent of "the bosom of" as in Abraham and Christ, yes.

skypair

 

Yep. And your point?

I think we all agree here that man is depraved.

 

Wesley is saying man is TOTALLY depraved, not just depraved. That's one of the key differences between Arminianism and free-willism (or semi-pelagianism). Wesley goes so far as to say that if you don't agree, you're not a Christian.