Total Depravity...

[webdog]

No. When they are in hell it is too late.

Those people in those cities are there, no? Wasn't Jesus saying if they had a second chance...they would repent?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Because He is soveriegn in what is alotted to men concerning the truths revealed. But He gives the same truths that lead to repentance in differing forms. Some small and some great but all revealed by God that if they believe they might be saved.

It doesn't matter if you one know ONE truth or see all the miricals Jesus did which Identified Him as a man of God. God gives all that is needed and it is HIS gracefilled decision to give more or no more.

Allan, I love you brother. You will not admit that this Matt 11 seems to say that God knew what it would take for them to be saved, but He didn't work those works which would have saved them. It seems that God really does not want all to be saved or they would be. It seems that election due to foresight of what a person would do is incorrect too. You will have to show me different in light of these verses.

 

[Allan]

But I thought He wanted all men to be saved? No, you know what I believe...

Yes God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth.

1Ti 2:1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Those people in those cities are there, no? Wasn't Jesus saying if they had a second chance...they would repent?

There are no second chances in hell. He knew what it would take for them to repent.... and He didn't work those works that it would take. He does not want everyone inclusively to be saved.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Yes God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth.

Awwww now Allan...... :laugh: You know that the word used for all in that verse of scripture is used again in Chap 6 to mean all sorts of. :godisgood:

 

[Allan]

Allan, I love you brother. You will not admit that this Matt 11 seems to say that God knew what it would take for them to be saved, but He didn't work those works which would have saved them. It seems that God really does not want all to be saved or they would be. It seems that election due to foresight of what a person would do is incorrect too. You will have to show me different in light of these verses.

:laugh:
He could not work those works for Christ had to be born at a different time. God desires man to be saved but God also has each man alotted to a specific time and place. So though they did not get the know the MAN Jesus they did have the same knowledge given to others who DID believe in THEIR time.

Will you admit that God says in that passage THEY COULD HAVE BEEN Saved. Not hypothetically but literally just as Jesus states, though they were not the of the chosen to salvation, salvation is something that they could have attained through belief.

Does this also not show that foreknowing is part of His eternal choice of us.

 

[Blammo]

Allan, I love you brother. You will not admit that this Matt 11 seems to say that God knew what it would take for them to be saved, but He didn't work those works which would have saved them. It seems that God really does not want all to be saved or they would be. It seems that election due to foresight of what a person would do is incorrect too. You will have to show me different in light of these verses.

Matt 11 definately proves that it is up to man to believe. God could have throughout history done things that made it impossible for man not to believe. He could have made our lives long enough that we would eventually believe. When webdog said there are people in hell that could have been given more chances, he was not suggesting they will. They had their chance. Just like the people spoken of in Matt 11. They had their chance.

 

[Allan]

Awwww now Allan...... :laugh: You know that the word used for all in that verse of scripture is used again in Chap 6 to mean all sorts of. :godisgood:

Yes, IN CHAPTER 6

But in context of Chapter 2 it means ALL MANKIND.
It is specifically denoted in verse 5 where Christ is the mediator between God and MEN (mankind). Not all types of men since all is not used but the word for Mankind. Thus if Jesus is the mediator between God and mankind the next verse must follow the premise set forth and mean that Jesus gave himself a ransom for all mankind and not all types of men. For the giving as a ranson is positional work of the Him being the mediator between God and mankind.

 

[webdog]

There are no second chances in hell. He knew what it would take for them to repent.... and He didn't work those works that it would take. He does not want everyone inclusively to be saved.

I realize there are no second chance, but don't you think Jesus realized that too? His statement was hypothetical in nature.

 

[reformedbeliever]

:laugh:
He could not work those works for Christ had to be born at a different time. God desires man to be saved but God also has each man alotted to a specific time and place. So though they did not get the know the MAN Jesus they did have the same knowledge given to others who DID believe in THEIR time.

Will you admit that God says in that passage THEY COULD HAVE BEEN Saved. Not hypothetically but literally just as Jesus states, though they were not the of the chosen to salvation, salvation is something that they could have attained through belief.

Does this also not show that foreknowing is part of His eternal choice of us.

God could have worked great works without Jesus being there in person. I don't buy the time difference thing. I don't think God is bound by time. I can just see it now....... God saying....... "oh man..... if Jesus was only here now..... :" Abraham was saved by faith. God could have saved them by working works that would have , as He foresaw, made them believe.

No, I'd say He said they "would" have.

 

[Allan]

Wesley is saying man is TOTALLY depraved, not just depraved. That's one of the key differences between Arminianism and free-willism (or semi-pelagianism). Wesley goes so far as to say that if you don't agree, you're not a Christian.

That is what I was refering to. TOTALLY Depraved. Look back at the first 7 to 9 of this thread and you will see we all agree on that. We differ however on the means God uses to enable us to respond either positively or negitively.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Matt 11 definately proves that it is up to man to believe. God could have throughout history done things that made it impossible for man not to believe. He could have made our lives long enough that we would eventually believe. When webdog said there are people in hell that could have been given more chances, he was not suggesting they will. They had their chance. Just like the people spoken of in Matt 11. They had their chance.

But God knew what it would take for them to believe.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I realize there are no second chance, but don't you think Jesus realized that too? His statement was hypothetical in nature.

Ok....... so it is hypothetical? I don't buy that...... but you already knew that huh? :laugh:
It seems to me that He is saying that He and God knew exactly what it would have taken for them to be saved and did not do it.

 

[Allan]

God could have worked great works without Jesus being there in person. I don't buy the time difference thing. I don't think God is bound by time. I can just see it now....... God saying....... "oh man..... if Jesus was only here now..... :" Abraham was saved by faith. God could have saved them by working works that would have , as He foresaw, made them believe.

No, I'd say He said they "would" have.

God is not bound by time, But man IS.
Jesus being in the flesh was bound to and in time as well.

And there was not one prophet or man of God who could come CLOSE to that which Jesus did. At best the prophets did one maybe two miricles in the same day. Jesus was know to do multitudes.
But like I stated about miricles, signs, and wonders...
They are given to prove the person doing them are indeed men of God. Jesus was saying if I did these miricles among them, they would have known who I was and repented. but you refuse to believe.
At least in the context of signs and wonders being done.

But as I said, they recieved the same truths ALL THE OTHERS in THEIR TIME recieved and they rejected it.

 

[Allan]

But God knew what it would take for them to believe.

And God gave to them the same truths He gave to others during their same time period. But they refused.

Just like there are most likely millions who would repent and come to Christ if He were here doing all that He did then, Now. But they have the same truths we who have believed, recieved. But they reject it.

Everyone is given the opportunity to know truth, just as everyone is responsible for what they do with the truth they received.

 

[reformedbeliever]

And God gave to them the same truths He gave to others during their same time period. But they refused.

Just like there are most likely millions who would repent and come to Christ if He were here doing all that He did then, Now. But they have the same truths we who have believed, recieved. But they reject it.

Everyone is given the opportunity to know truth, just as everyone is responsible for what they do with the truth they received.

Not according to Mark 4.

Mark 4:
[11] And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
[12] That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.​

Note that this particular passage is talking about conversion, and the forgiveness of sins.
And note that Jesus does *not* want some people to be converted; He does not want them to have their sins forgiven. He forsees that they would have faith if they truly understood His message, but He explicitly says that He uses parables so that they will *not* understand Him. Again, God does not respond to foreknown faith by predestining them!
Notice that Mark 4:11-12 actually demonstrates the *opposite* of prevenient grace. This is more like an example of Divine "prevenient hardening". Consider this comparison:

• Arminians think that God wants as many people to repent and be saved as possible, and that He gives all people "prevenient grace" to enable the salvation of all people.
• But Mark 4:11-12 teaches us that God knew about some people who *would* repent and be saved, and so Jesus spoke in parables to make sure that would not happen! Jesus refrained from speaking to them clearly, "lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

The above two statements are completely in opposition to one another. Arminian "prevenient grace" is a doctrine that directly contradicts the Scriptures.
Conclusion

In Matthew 11:21-27, we can see that God sometimes withholds things from people, even when He knows that those very things would have brought people to repentance. These actions of God do not sound at all like the actions of Someone who wishes to enable the salvation of everybody.
In Mark 4:11-12, we can see that Jesus intentionally spoke in parables, instead of plain language, so that many people would *not* understand, repent, and be forgiven. This is clearly the opposite of Arminian prevenient grace. http://www.biblelighthouse.com/sovereignty/prevenient.htm

 

[Blammo]

Acts 28:23-28 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Do you see that last line?
Does "blindness in part" ring a bell?
Does "I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you." ring a bell?

Romans 10:20-21 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Acts 28:23-28 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Do you see that last line?
Does "blindness in part" ring a bell?
Does "I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you." ring a bell?

Romans 10:20-21 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Brother, one time you alluded to me that you were not very smart, or maybe had reduced mental capacity due to being banged on the head too many times. I disagree with you.
Now, I'm gonna tell you that my head doesn't work just right *much* of the time.......... :laugh:
You will have to be more specific for me. I've had this happen a time or two also. :BangHead: :wavey:

 

[Allan]

Not according to Mark 4.

Mark 4:
[11] And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
[12] That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.​

Note that this particular passage is talking about conversion, and the forgiveness of sins.
And note that Jesus does *not* want some people to be converted; He does not want them to have their sins forgiven. ]

Yes, and NOTE that thousands upon thousands of Jews shortly after the resurrection forward were saved. Not a very good blinding by God, would you not agree? Or maybe it was a general statement more toward a Nation UNDER JUDGMENT.
Remember God did not blind them (the Jews) individually but Nationally and was a fulfillment of prophesy UPON THE NATION.
But scripturally speaking EVERY TIME a person is blinded it is because they have rejected the revealed truths of God and THEN God gives them over, and allows their hearts to be darkened and hearts to be seared through.

Though some may say something to this effect:
What I see here is an instance in Isaiah 6 where God actually takes steps to prevent repentance and faith. Blinding and hardening them, and clouding their understanding

Answer:
Yes, Granted...but WHY?? For there IS a reason!!
Otherwise does God just up and decide to blind HIS People who are called by His name?
Is there a reason?
When you read the texts (from Isaiah into the gospels) you find that they (Israel) have brought forth the Judgment of God through blinding them due to their rejection of Gods truths after multiple attempts at drawing them back. This is a judgment due to something they have continuously and consistantly being doing already. In a sense God is giving them over to what they already wanted DESPITE God trying to bring them back unto Himself before He did this.
(You can find this rejection of truth and THEN God gives them over to the lie...blinding in all my afore mentioned chapters and verses.


Regarding Isaiah 6 and John:
It was a judgment of God due to their unbelief as a Nation at that time and as well as fulfillment of prophesy from Isaiah which was coming into fruition in the prophetic sense during Johns time. The Jews rejected God as a Nation and therefore they would and did reject Gods Messiah as well. Hey that would be only natural right - reject God you would also have to reject that sames Gods Messiah.
It was Gods judgment on Israel as a Nation by which they would reject Him and that salvation would then go to the world. However Isreal is not set off to the side and discarded as there are multiple prophesies which state they were to be rejected by God but would again at a later time be accepted again (Hos 1 and Rom 10 and 11 of the top of my head). but we know just as Christ stated many Jews came to know Him personally but they did not recieve Him not as a Nation. (John 1:10) But God has stated that Israel will be saved (not every Jewish person but the Jews as as a National body) Something they were not (a Nation) long before Paul spoke of it or even the prophets when Israel no longer was a Nation (that being God saving them as a Nation) and still were not until the 1947. (Not bad for an over 3000 year old prophesy huh?)

Blammo used another good section of scipture still pertaining to the same prophesy of Isaiah and his Romans reference speaking to the same things.
I gave a little more detailed explaination of this in the thread :
"Please explain John 12:37-40"

However I have no problem going back through it again.

He forsees that they would have faith if they truly understood His message, but He explicitly says that He uses parables so that they will *not* understand Him. Again, God does not respond to foreknown faith by predestining them!

You are incorrect here as you 'set the deck' in your own words as to who those who view it diffently would state it and so it is not properly communicated .
There are times of dispention concerning God and His dealing with man which speak directly to how God will deal in and to each one, but always to the same extent - revealing His truth.
Jesus used the illistration of a past known godless (--first key) groups of people (--second key) and if they had witnessed the miricles you had witnessed (--thrid key) they would have repented...the city would have remained until this day (--fouth key).
1. Jesus shows the parallel of the spiritual nature concerning the godlessness of the cities and the godlessness Nation of Israel.
2. Jesus shows the parallel that they are grouped and not individuals, so it speaks of the people in a "as a whole" (agian Nationally)
3. Jesus shows the godless cities are witnesses AGAINST Israel for its unbelief. If the godless pagan would see and know, then you are doubly guilty.
.........To whom much is given much will be required.......... That is why the godless cities judgment can not be compared to the judgment set forth by God upon who hold the truth in unrighteousness, turning the truths of God THEY KNOW to their own lusts. And KNOWING the judgment that comes for doing this, they increase and take great pleasure in those who are like minded. (Rom 1, 2 Thes, and Eph 4)
4. IF they were appointed to see the things like you do, they would have repented.
(kinda reminds you of the verse - blessed are those who do NOT see and believe)
......Does this show God did not desire to save them? By no means. The passage speaks directly to the Jewish Nations unbelief and is why it is tangled in the prophesy of Isaiah FOR THEIR UNBELIEF. Those of the godless cities HAD TRUTH but rejected it, having never seen nor heard the Savior Himself as the Jews directly were, the story would have been different. But Jesus could not come into every generation as He in the flesh could only come to one. And it was Gods plan to give light to all but the not the same measure to all - thus dispensations.

Notice that Mark 4:11-12 actually demonstrates the *opposite* of prevenient grace. This is more like an example of Divine "prevenient hardening". Consider this comparison:

• 
  Actually it does not and is not. It shows God does not bend over backwards to force men to come to Him, and is the very reason God pleads with man to hear and obey. God leaves man responsible to obey the truths God reveals REGARDLESS of the extent (great or small) revealed. Otherwise God just jabbers away for nothing when He pleads with man to repent, turn, harden not your hearts as in the day of provocation. (man responsible for his hardening??)
  
  

  [*]Arminians think that God wants as many people to repent and be saved as possible, and that He gives all people "prevenient grace" to enable the salvation of all people.
  [*]But Mark 4:11-12 teaches us that God knew about some people who *would* repent and be saved, and so Jesus spoke in parables to make sure that would not happen! Jesus refrained from speaking to them clearly, "lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

The above two statements are completely in opposition to one another. Arminian "prevenient grace" is a doctrine that directly contradicts the Scriptures.

No, it directly contradicts YOUR understanding of it. There is MUCH more to this than what you set forth.

Conclusion

In Matthew 11:21-27, we can see that God sometimes withholds things from people, even when He knows that those very things would have brought people to repentance. These actions of God do not sound at all like the actions of Someone who wishes to enable the salvation of everybody.
In Mark 4:11-12, we can see that Jesus intentionally spoke in parables, instead of plain language, so that many people would *not* understand, repent, and be forgiven. This is clearly the opposite of Arminian prevenient grace. http://www.biblelighthouse.com/sovereignty/prevenient.htm

1. God did not WITHHOLD from them (as a people), with the exception of Jesus Himself. As a people they had truth and rejected it therefore God did not withhold truth from them, but He did not pour out truth is the same measure that He pour it out to Israel in time of Christ. Other during that time with the same truths they had DID come to a saving knowledge of God and followed after Him. So they had the same amount of truths others had, which was suffient for their salvation.

2. Yes He did, because of thier unbelief and fulfillment of prophesy toward the Nation of Israel.

Nope still not the opposite, just opposite of what you understand.

 

[skypair]

Again NO.
Hear from God - believe - receive salvation... Yes. That is scirptural. Believe THEN receive faith - STILL has not been shown scripturally

If all mans thoughts (as in every individual instead of the general sense of mankind) were continually upon evil.

You're right on all counts --- in your own mind anyway. :1_grouphug:

Belief = faith --- Congratulations! You're promoted to Calvinism 201!

BTW, here's that scripture I MISquoted from webdog. Not that it changed your mind then either. :cry:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

And Noah got saved by companying with lost men who thought only wickedness continually before they were all destroyed. Good.

By your leave, we'll just leave it at that.

skypair