Total Depravity...

[reformedbeliever]

That's good stuff, RB.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Who does the Father give to Christ, and why? Do we see an answer in John 6:44-45?

John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Every man that hath heard, and learned of the Father, come to Jesus.

I don't see predestination or election in these verses. I see men given knowledge, and their coming to Christ depending on what they do with that knowledge.

The problem with this view of this verse Blammo, is that not everyone hears the Gospel. Most people in this world never hear it. If we look later in John, Jesus says that if I be lifted up, I will draw all men to myself. Does He draw all men inclusively? Aparently not, if there are many in the world who never get to hear the Gospel.
Does God fail to get the Gospel to all men inclusively? I think not. God can not fail. It seems that God is pleased to have only those whom He chooses to receive the Gospel... and they do. Not that they deserve it at all....... they don't. He apparently is pleased that many do not. Do we have any other answers?

 

[reformedbeliever]

John,

Your position is consistent, and I applaud you for that. I don't see how a Calvinist can believe anything that happens is not completely from the mind of God. Calvinists, more than anyone else, ought to believe that nothing ever caught God by surprise at any point in eternity.

I'm a little puzzled by this statement Blammo. Do you think there is any calvinist who thinks God is surprised by anything? I don't think that is what you think... from our previous conversations I think you have a great understanding of calvinist doctrine. Of course sometimes my thinking gets me in trouble. :laugh:

I appreciate your true thirst for truth. I too thirst for truth. If you find out how God is sovereign and men are responsible........ please let me know. :godisgood:

 

[reformedbeliever]

Awwww c'mon Webdog....... I see you viewing this thread! I'm waitin on you.... Got my guns loaded for you non calvies tonight. :laugh:

 

[Allan]

Awwww c'mon Webdog....... I see you viewing this thread! I'm waitin on you.... Got my guns loaded for you non calvies tonight. :laugh:

I'll be bock. :laugh:

 

[reformedbeliever]

I'll be bock. :laugh:

I'm runnin now............ :laugh:

 

[webdog]

*lurkin in the shadows...waiting to pounce on the weakest prey...

 

[Sober_Baptist]

No place in Scripture does regeneration precede faith in Christ. Pastor Larry would even agree to that.

How about Abram?

He built altars to the Lord, and tithed long before his faith was counted as righteousness!

Say what?

 

[johnp.]

Your position is consistent...

Consistently wrong?

I don't see how a Calvinist can believe anything that happens is not completely from the mind of God.

I believe all things are determined by God. I know why people believe as they do. I believe all things are determined by God.

Calvinists, more than anyone else, ought to believe that nothing ever caught God by surprise at any point in eternity.

If any Calvinist ever claims that God was taken by surprise then that person is not a Calvinist. This is not a Calvinist thought and goes contrary to sound doctrine.

If you find out how God is sovereign and men are responsible........ please let me know.

It's easy reformed, RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

God says He can do what He pleases and that includes reprobating just because He wants to reprobate. Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:

RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
For a long time I could see God's Sovereignty and man being held to account and I fobbed it off with a, "There is something He hasn't told us that makes that alright." I was wrong. The fact is that God gets us to do things that He will punish us for. That is God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility and that is it.

What if, for the benefit of His people, He sends some to Hell to show us what we missed? Part of God's providence towards me was the billions He sent to Hell.

webdog preys?

john.

 

[webdog]

How about Abram?

He built altars to the Lord, and tithed long before his faith was counted as righteousness!

Say what?

You have not proved regeneration prior to faith, sorry.

 

[johnp.]

You have not proved regeneration prior to faith, sorry.

Mark 4:8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times."

Where did you get your good soil from webdog?

You have not proved regeneration prior to faith, sorry.

JN 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "
JN 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

john.

 

[webdog]

Analogies do not a doctrine make...

 

[johnp.]

Analogies do not a doctrine make...

Is this an answer to me webdog? If it is please expand on your meaning please. Remember, the secrets of the Kingdom of God have been given to us but not to them.

john.

 

[reformedbeliever]

The fact is that God gets us to do things that He will punish us for. That is God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility and that is it.

Well John, I agree. God does get us to do all things that we do through His providence.... but in a way that does not make Him tempt or cause a man to sin. Somehow He does it in a way that keeps Him without sin. I think God is big enough to do that. I think we all would be desperately wicked without His common grace. I think He represses evil to an extent. Without His presence, evil would be hell.......... litterally.

I know you are going to give me verses of scripture that seem to make God the author of sin. Those scriptures are hard to refute. When we have scripture that seems to contradict other scripture, we need to take a close look and see if there may be another explanation. God does not contradict Himself. The process and result of translation... and ultimately exegesis... is not without error.... on our part.

 

[npetreley]

I am speaking of the fact that the verse says "... hath heard, and hath learned..."

You are focused on the "Every man" and "cometh unto me", leaving out the words between, and making it seem as though there is no condition. Do you see anything in the verses saying every man hears, learns, and comes? I don't. It says every man who hath heard and learned will come.

Yeah, so? Hath heard. Hath learned. Where's the part about "depends on what they do with what they hath heard and learned"? I don't see it in my Bible. Did I buy another broken Bible?

 

[Blammo]

Yeah, so? Hath heard. Hath learned. Where's the part about "depends on what they do with what they hath heard and learned"? I don't see it in my Bible. Did I buy another broken Bible?

I'm not trying to be cute, Nicholas. I didn't say it depended on what they did with what they heard and learned. It says those who come to Christ are those who have heard and learned.

What about those who have not learned? Were they not "elected"? The Bible doesn't say. Have they not heard? The Bible seems to indicate they have. (Romans 10) "who hath believed our report?"

 

[Blammo]

The problem with this view of this verse Blammo, is that not everyone hears the Gospel. Most people in this world never hear it. If we look later in John, Jesus says that if I be lifted up, I will draw all men to myself. Does He draw all men inclusively? Aparently not, if there are many in the world who never get to hear the Gospel.
Does God fail to get the Gospel to all men inclusively? I think not. God can not fail. It seems that God is pleased to have only those whom He chooses to receive the Gospel... and they do. Not that they deserve it at all....... they don't. He apparently is pleased that many do not. Do we have any other answers?

You're not making an emotional appeal to me, are you? It's not about fairness. Who are we to reply against God? What is it to us if all men have the Gospel preached unto them? He did tell us to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature.

I'm rambling on purpose. It's easier to be honest this way.

 

[johnp.]

Somehow He does it in a way that keeps Him without sin. I think God is big enough to do that.

But that misses the point reformed. God doesn't need to be big enough to achieve His ends without sinning, all He needs do, or not do, is not to make a law against anything He does. Sin is the breaking of God's law it is not breaking an established law of nature which binds Him as well. God has told us how to behave, He does not include Himself in this.
He did not say it was a sin for Him to lie but He said He cannot lie. That is for our comfort. If we knew He could lie then we could not be sure and certain of our perseverance could we?

I know you are going to give me verses of scripture that seem to make God the author of sin.

I'll let you off. Total depravity is the name of the game.

john.

 

[webdog]

God has told us how to behave, He does not include Himself in this.
He did not say it was a sin for Him to lie but He said He cannot lie. That is for our comfort. If we knew He could lie then we could not be sure and certain of our perseverance could we?

Does this clear it all up for you blammo? :laugh:

 

[johnp.]

What is it to us if all men have the Gospel preached unto them?

To me that would invalidate many scriptures Blammo.

PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.

RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...

AM 8:11 "The days are coming," declares the Sovereign LORD, "when I will send a famine through the land-- not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.

To name but three.

He did tell us to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature.

He also said, Matt 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

*lurkin in the shadows...waiting to pounce on the weakest prey...

webdog, you have pounced? Cool.

Does this clear it all up for you blammo?

Analogies do not a doctrine make... Is this an answer to me webdog? If it is please expand on your meaning please. Remember, the secrets of the Kingdom of God have been given to us but not to them.

Why have you ignored my questions webdog? Mark 4:8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times."

Where did you get your good soil from webdog? Others need to know.

Why don't you answer questions man?

john.

 

[Blammo]

Does this clear it all up for you blammo? :laugh:

Webdog, I'm kinda dumb. All I know is "now we see through a glass, darkly" makes more sense all the time.