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Total Depravity...
- Thread starter Blammo
- Start date
johnp. said:
Sorry, let me rephrase that to include everyone.
What is it to us if all men have the Gospel preached unto them, or not?
I can't say it's not fair that all men do not have a chance to be saved, so you can not tell me it's not fair that all men do not have the Gospel preached to them. Either way, it doesn't seem fair. But who are we to reply against God? He told us to preach the Gospel to every creature.
reformedbeliever
New Member
Blammo said:
I was going to say that we don't want God to be fair. I don't. You are far from stupid brother.
reformedbeliever
New Member
webdog said:
Well actually web... this parable (mark 4) Jesus goes on to explain it. He says that not all are given to understand. As a matter of fact the understanding is hidden. This parable is commonly known as the Messianic secret.
Mar 4:11 He said to them, "The secret about the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside, everything comes in parables
Mar 4:12 so that 'they may see clearly but not perceive, and they may hear clearly but not understand, otherwise they might turn around and be forgiven.'"
reformedbeliever said:
When I was four, I road my sled down the hill in our back yard and came to a sudden stop when my head hit the foundation wall.
When I was twelve I took my bike off a ramp and landed upside down in an irrigation ditch, the first part of my body to make contact was my head. It hit a rather large rock.
When I was fifteen I was trying to kick a soccer ball like Pele. I landed headfirst on a rock hidden under the grass.
My IQ has dropped to 136. I'm not a genius anymore.
That's why I have a hard time with Calvinism. How many times did God detemine I should smash my head in one lifetime?
reformedbeliever
New Member
Blammo said:
Enough times until you embrace calvinism... :laugh:
Just keep on embracing Jesus and His Holy Scriptures Blammo. I was pretty hard headed when I was younger too. I have a few scars to prove it.
Blammo said:
Romans 3:9- 18 sums it up very well.
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (NKJV)
reformedbeliever said:
Well, I may embrace the doctrines (watered down of course), it looks like Total Depravity may be one I can agree on... so far. However, to be labeled a Calvinist will never be a desire of mine.
Has Total Depravity been properly explained here? It seems the best explainations came from Pastor Larry (a Calvinist) and Allan (a Non-cal). Anybody disagree with their definitions?
"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. ... Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations and Noah walked with God." Gen 6:8-9 Hmm.Blammo said:
So how do you suppose Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord? Didn't it seem that God had rejected everyone?
And note -- it was NOT God that found grace, it was Noah. I would say Noah found grace by believing. Thereafter (after grace), it was Noah that was just, perfect in his generations, and walked with God.
Let's see how it happened that "Noah found grace," shall we? Heb 11:7 (rephrased, still correctly stated) "...Noah being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,... By faith ..., prepared an ark..."
Order of events: Noah was 1) warned of God/Spirit, 2) was convicted and 3) moved (we'd say chose or decided to believe God) and 4) by faith the that God gave him prepared the ark.
Isn't that pretty much how we are saved? Warned - convicted - moved or act with fear and respect - given faith?
skypair
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Jarthur001
Active Member
skypair said:
You were kidding...right?
Nothing Blammo, but scripture says He doesn't? It becomes our problem if we say He tells everyone when in fact He doesn't.
I'll say it for you, it's not fair.
By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)
john.
Are you saying we cannot use parables to form our doctrine webdog? I thought all scripture was good for doctrine. Read the parable again and tell me how it's to do with what we do and not a natural sequence. Good soil and the seed chucked in by the Farmer grows. A heart of stone and the seeds are snatched away, not thrown away.
Where did you get your good soil from webdog? Others need to know.
john.
This thread isn't about soil. Visit the gardening forum...johnp. said:Are you saying we cannot use parables to form our doctrine webdog? I thought all scripture was good for doctrine. Read the parable again and tell me how it's to do with what we do and not a natural sequence. Good soil and the seed chucked in by the Farmer grows. A heart of stone and the seeds are snatched away, not thrown away.
Where did you get your good soil from webdog? Others need to know.
john.
All soil starts out the same. How does one batch become good soil?
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When Scripture is preceded "at it is written", it's important to go back and see what the text was originally used for in context.TC said:
This text... the way you have presented it here before us..., would have to include us, too, in our present state. "Is" is current, while "have" is past tense.
I don't know about you, but in Christ I "am" righteous, I "do" seek after God and understand, and Scripture teaches that in Christ I have been created for good works. I also have peace.
Not to mention, I've never shed any blood
Psa 14:1 To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man (opposite of sons of God), to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
Psa 14:3 They (the fool) have all turned aside; together they (the fool) have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
Psa 14:4 Have they (the fool) no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the LORD?
Psa 14:5 There they (the fool) are in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.
Psa 14:6 You would shame the plans of the poor, but the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 14:7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people, let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.
skypair said:
Pro 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Yes, skypair, but as I understand Total Depravity as explained in this thread thus far. Man, left to himself, would never seek after God, he is entirely corrupted by sin, and any good that he does is not pleasing to God because it is done outside of faith. So far nobody seems to be telling me that Total Depravity means Total Inablility. (That I would reject) But I believe Total Depravity as explained here, with a few minor exceptions, is something I can accept as Scriptural.
In your example above, Noah was not left to himself. Some will say that God had to change Noah's nature and irresistably cause Noah to obey. However, no proof for that will be found in Scripture. All we will find in Scripture is God influencing Noah, and God's omniscience. Some may assume Noah would not have obeyed without some change of his nature, but I don't see that in the Bible.
Hello webdog.
Is there one? That would be interesting, to go and see if we could start a C/A argument in horticulture.
It is very much to do with soil and hearts and seeds and Satan snatching the word away from those with no good soil for the word of God to grow in. Where is the free will but with the Devil snatching away those dead in their sins?
Mk 4:15 Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
Yet some tell us that it is up to us what we do with the word of God. Mk 4:20 Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop...
So where did the good stuff come from webdog that caused you to do what cannot be done? How can one come unto Him unless one's soil is good? How can one produce good before regeneration when the seed is snatched away by Satan?
You want to talk about soil now?
john.
Is there one? That would be interesting, to go and see if we could start a C/A argument in horticulture.
It is very much to do with soil and hearts and seeds and Satan snatching the word away from those with no good soil for the word of God to grow in. Where is the free will but with the Devil snatching away those dead in their sins?
Mk 4:15 Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
Yet some tell us that it is up to us what we do with the word of God. Mk 4:20 Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop...
So where did the good stuff come from webdog that caused you to do what cannot be done? How can one come unto Him unless one's soil is good? How can one produce good before regeneration when the seed is snatched away by Satan?
You want to talk about soil now?
john.
Hello Blammo.
Total Depravity means Total Inablility. ...but as I understand Total Depravity as explained in this thread thus far. Man, left to himself, would never seek after God...
Rom 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
The mind of the sinner is controlled by the sinful nature. The sinful nature has desires and expresses itself in indulging it's passions. When confronted with God it reacts as a combatant in a war and resists it's Oppressor. How can a man turn to God in this condition?
john.
Total Depravity means Total Inablility.
...but as I understand Total Depravity as explained in this thread thus far. Man, left to himself, would never seek after God...Rom 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
The mind of the sinner is controlled by the sinful nature. The sinful nature has desires and expresses itself in indulging it's passions. When confronted with God it reacts as a combatant in a war and resists it's Oppressor. How can a man turn to God in this condition?
john.