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Total Depravity...
- Thread starter Blammo
- Start date
Hello JDale.
I don't speak for most Calvinists. That quote is right about me.
God so loved the world that He was willing, not only to give His Son for it, but to cut Israel off as well.
If God so loved the world, that is all men ever born, why does Jesus not pray for it? John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
If God isn't willing that any perish why does He create men that He knows are going to Hell? If He is not willing that any go to Hell why did He create it? If God isn't willing that any go to Hell why was no sacrifice given for the angels? They must be part of the any must they not?
"Whosoever will." for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13.
"Whosoever will." Doesn't carry the meaning everyone can. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:26.
There is no offer to the reprobate just wrath to come. Does He mock man? Does He offer salvation to those He knows are going to Hell and for what reason?
Love protects and does no harm and God is portrayed as a lover of all men yet He creates people that He knows are going to Hell. If God loves them He wouldn't have created them because He will have to hold their record against them and love keeps no record of wrongs, 1 Cor 13:5.
Tell it to Pharoah. If any of those that God loves goes to Hell then scripture tells us that God's love has failed. Scripture explicitly says love does not fail. 1 Cor 13:8. It also says that love does not keep a record of wrongs but judgment day is coming.
That is a misrepresentation.
REV 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.
No, it conflicts with your view of God but it does not defy God's revelation of Himself. Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Total depravity is proved from the beginning of scripture. Two tribes were to come out of Eve, the saints and the reprobates and those destinies were fixed before the creation of the world. GE 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
Cool man.
john.
I don't speak for most Calvinists. That quote is right about me.
God so loved the world that He was willing, not only to give His Son for it, but to cut Israel off as well.
If God so loved the world, that is all men ever born, why does Jesus not pray for it? John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
If God isn't willing that any perish why does He create men that He knows are going to Hell? If He is not willing that any go to Hell why did He create it? If God isn't willing that any go to Hell why was no sacrifice given for the angels? They must be part of the any must they not?
"Whosoever will." for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13.
"Whosoever will." Doesn't carry the meaning everyone can. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:26.
You include Pharoah in this 'all men'? Why would Jesus draw all men and not pray for them? Why would the Father draw all men when He knows who is and who isn't going to Hell? How is it that men left in the dark and long dead and buried will be drawn to Christ when He is lifted up, (Ps 147:19-20; Rom 2:12)? How does scripture get broken because Jesus said that those the Father draws He will raise up? "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44. The promise of Jesus is that if we are drawn we will be saved.
There is no offer to the reprobate just wrath to come. Does He mock man? Does He offer salvation to those He knows are going to Hell and for what reason?
1 Peter 2:8 ...They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
Love protects and does no harm and God is portrayed as a lover of all men yet He creates people that He knows are going to Hell. If God loves them He wouldn't have created them because He will have to hold their record against them and love keeps no record of wrongs, 1 Cor 13:5.
Tell it to Pharoah.
If any of those that God loves goes to Hell then scripture tells us that God's love has failed. Scripture explicitly says love does not fail. 1 Cor 13:8. It also says that love does not keep a record of wrongs but judgment day is coming.That is a misrepresentation.
REV 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.
No, it conflicts with your view of God but it does not defy God's revelation of Himself. Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Total depravity is proved from the beginning of scripture. Two tribes were to come out of Eve, the saints and the reprobates and those destinies were fixed before the creation of the world. GE 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
Cool man.
john.
skypair.
Are you in Christ Jesus because you chose? I am there because He chose.
And so is that. Your point being?
I have no wish or care to prove I am a member of the Royal Priesthood chosen before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight, listen to what I say and do not concern yourself over my status.
Read hearts and minds now skypair?
john.
Are you in Christ Jesus because you chose? I am there because He chose.
And so is that.
Your point being?I have no wish or care to prove I am a member of the Royal Priesthood chosen before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight
, listen to what I say and do not concern yourself over my status.Read hearts and minds now skypair?
john.
JohnP:
Man goes to hell due to no fault of God -- He has provided the means and opportunity for ALL to come to Him and receive salvation.
God created Adam for fellowship -- since that time, God only mediately creates men, through other men, from whom they inherit the fallen nature from Adam. God did not/does not create man to "go to hell," but for fellowship with Him. Again, their failure to be in fellowship God is their responsibility, not His.
If I were a Calvinist who held your views, to be consistent I would be a Primitive Baptist. They are consistent in that they have no missions program -- If God has predestined the "elect" to be saved, God will saved them -- after all, humans play NO role.
It is clear that we do not -- and will not -- agree on this issue. So allow me to close with one of my favorite prayers, given by Charles H. Spurgeon (a Calvinist) at an evangelistic rally preached by D.L. Moody (an Arminian). Said Spurgeon, "Dear Lord, save the elect! And then Lord, elect some more!"
Amen and amen!
Blessings,
JDale
Man goes to hell due to no fault of God -- He has provided the means and opportunity for ALL to come to Him and receive salvation.
God created Adam for fellowship -- since that time, God only mediately creates men, through other men, from whom they inherit the fallen nature from Adam. God did not/does not create man to "go to hell," but for fellowship with Him. Again, their failure to be in fellowship God is their responsibility, not His.
If I were a Calvinist who held your views, to be consistent I would be a Primitive Baptist. They are consistent in that they have no missions program -- If God has predestined the "elect" to be saved, God will saved them -- after all, humans play NO role.
It is clear that we do not -- and will not -- agree on this issue. So allow me to close with one of my favorite prayers, given by Charles H. Spurgeon (a Calvinist) at an evangelistic rally preached by D.L. Moody (an Arminian). Said Spurgeon, "Dear Lord, save the elect! And then Lord, elect some more!"
Amen and amen!
Blessings,
JDale
johnp. said:Hello JDale.
I don't speak for most Calvinists. That quote is right about me.
God so loved the world that He was willing, not only to give His Son for it, but to cut Israel off as well.
If God so loved the world, that is all men ever born, why does Jesus not pray for it? John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
If God isn't willing that any perish why does He create men that He knows are going to Hell? If He is not willing that any go to Hell why did He create it? If God isn't willing that any go to Hell why was no sacrifice given for the angels? They must be part of the any must they not?
"Whosoever will." for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13.
"Whosoever will." Doesn't carry the meaning everyone can. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:26.
You include Pharoah in this 'all men'? Why would Jesus draw all men and not pray for them? Why would the Father draw all men when He knows who is and who isn't going to Hell? How is it that men left in the dark and long dead and buried will be drawn to Christ when He is lifted up, (Ps 147:19-20; Rom 2:12)? How does scripture get broken because Jesus said that those the Father draws He will raise up? "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44. The promise of Jesus is that if we are drawn we will be saved.
There is no offer to the reprobate just wrath to come. Does He mock man? Does He offer salvation to those He knows are going to Hell and for what reason?
1 Peter 2:8 ...They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
Love protects and does no harm and God is portrayed as a lover of all men yet He creates people that He knows are going to Hell. If God loves them He wouldn't have created them because He will have to hold their record against them and love keeps no record of wrongs, 1 Cor 13:5.
Tell it to Pharoah.
That is a misrepresentation.
REV 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.
No, it conflicts with your view of God but it does not defy God's revelation of Himself. Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Total depravity is proved from the beginning of scripture. Two tribes were to come out of Eve, the saints and the reprobates and those destinies were fixed before the creation of the world. GE 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
Cool man.
john.
Since the other side has a fan club, I figure I better create some equal time.
(applause)
Here's the problem. Free-willers can quote all the "whosoevers" and "alls" until they're blue in the face. The problem is that their intepretations of these words (whosoever must mean it is open to anyone, all must mean every person whoever lived, lives or will live) contradict other scripture.
What free-willers consistently fail to address is the fact that these words need qualification. "All" must be qualified with "All of whom?" In some cases it may mean all men whoever lived, lives or will live. In other cases it might mean All Jews. In yet other cases it might mean all peoples (without respect to nationality, etc). In 2 Peter 3:9, IMO, the context clearly demands that it is "all of the elect".
As for whosoever, it tells you "whosever will", or "whosoever believes", but it doesn't tell you WHY someone will, and WHY someone believes. The word "whosoever" does NOT demand openness. The verse could just as easily have read "For God so loved the world that whosoever is 6 feet tall or taller should not perish..." Hmmm....what happened to the openness of "whosoever"?
reformedbeliever
New Member
npetreley said:
JDale is new here. He obviously has not read all the threads that have shown how the universalist implication of those verses, that have been repeated over and over, can not have a universal meaning in all cases. Contextually the 2 Peter 3:9 verse has been shown to mean all the chosen or elect or those who have received a faith as ours. (Christians) The non elect are not seen as being addressed there.... whether you base election upon foresight or foreknowledge (as in foreloved). The whosover will is always qualified by "who are the whosoever will" in the rest of scripture. In John 3:16 it is qualified by the fact or judgement or verdict of "the light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than the light for thier deeds were evil". This points right back to "you must be born again". That is the context.
reformedbeliever said:
RB:
I've actually been "here" off and on for a year. I haven't posted here much until the last week or two.
I must say I'm troubled at the condescending tone of your post. Of course, You're not alone. Calvinists tend to have that attitude. And no, I don't wish to "bait you" or personally attack -- since that's usually the next charge leveled against non-Calvinists.
Please, RB, (JohnP, npetreley, et. al. -- or, WHOSOEVER IS CALVINIST, to qualify
Now, does that mean I'm always right? Hardly. I am generally open to those who present different views -- within certain Biblical parameters anyway. But what troubles me about so many Calvinists is that they are RIGHT. If you disagree with them, with THEIR VIEW, you DISAGREE WITH GOD ALMIGHTY. Because, they are RIGHT. It's as though Calvinists -- by virtue of their elect status -- when given the Holy Spirit are given certain knowledge of their superior power of interpretation and theological knowledge. Too many can't even CONSIDER they might be wrong, much less say it. Because, they are the ELECT.
I'm "new" here. I suppose that's true. But I'm also a student of the Scriptures, a lover of the Lord, and a dedicated (though extraordinarily unworthy) Disciple. I'm not the sharpest pencil in the drawer, but God HAS given me some sense and intelligence -- and plenty of hours of study. Don't dismiss my view because it is not yours.
In Seminary, us "non-Calvinists" identified the Calvinists in two different groups on campus. There were the SR's, and then there were the OR's. The SR's were those who were sufficiently refored -- TULIP, Predestination, the whole shebang -- but they would at least discuss the issues openly. Then there were to OR's -- obnoxiously reformed. If you didn't believe or accept THEIR view of TULIP, predestination -- THE WHOLE SHEBANG -- well, you weren't elect, you were going to hell, and "why should I even listen to you? Who are you?"
I don't know hearts -- thank God for that. It's His job -- but guys, check the attitudes. If we're brothers, then can we not discuss these issues on which we disagree without condescension? Unless, you think I have "believed in vain..?"
JDale :tonofbricks:
JDale said:
Pot, meet kettle.
JDale said:Please, RB, (JohnP, npetreley, et. al. -- or, WHOSOEVER IS CALVINIST, to qualify) Don't relegate anyone who doesn't agree with you to the status of mental midget or intellectual dwarf. It's kinda, well, insulting. I've been in ministry for nearly 20 years, and I've been teaching College level Bible and Theology for 9 years. I'm not stupid, and I've done just a little bit of study about these issies over the last almost 3 decades.
Now, does that mean I'm always right? Hardly. I am generally open to those who present different views -- within certain Biblical parameters anyway. But what troubles me about so many Calvinists is that they are RIGHT. If you disagree with them, with THEIR VIEW, you DISAGREE WITH GOD ALMIGHTY. Because, they are RIGHT. It's as though Calvinists -- by virtue of their elect status -- when given the Holy Spirit are given certain knowledge of their superior power of interpretation and theological knowledge. Too many can't even CONSIDER they might be wrong, much less say it. Because, they are the ELECT.
reformedbeliever
New Member
JDale said:RB:
I've actually been "here" off and on for a year. I haven't posted here much until the last week or two.
I must say I'm troubled at the condescending tone of your post. Of course, You're not alone. Calvinists tend to have that attitude. And no, I don't wish to "bait you" or personally attack -- since that's usually the next charge leveled against non-Calvinists.
Please, RB, (JohnP, npetreley, et. al. -- or, WHOSOEVER IS CALVINIST, to qualify) Don't relegate anyone who doesn't agree with you to the status of mental midget or intellectual dwarf. It's kinda, well, insulting. I've been in ministry for nearly 20 years, and I've been teaching College level Bible and Theology for 9 years. I'm not stupid, and I've done just a little bit of study about these issies over the last almost 3 decades.
Now, does that mean I'm always right? Hardly. I am generally open to those who present different views -- within certain Biblical parameters anyway. But what troubles me about so many Calvinists is that they are RIGHT. If you disagree with them, with THEIR VIEW, you DISAGREE WITH GOD ALMIGHTY. Because, they are RIGHT. It's as though Calvinists -- by virtue of their elect status -- when given the Holy Spirit are given certain knowledge of their superior power of interpretation and theological knowledge. Too many can't even CONSIDER they might be wrong, much less say it. Because, they are the ELECT.
I'm "new" here. I suppose that's true. But I'm also a student of the Scriptures, a lover of the Lord, and a dedicated (though extraordinarily unworthy) Disciple. I'm not the sharpest pencil in the drawer, but God HAS given me some sense and intelligence -- and plenty of hours of study. Don't dismiss my view because it is not yours.
In Seminary, us "non-Calvinists" identified the Calvinists in two different groups on campus. There were the SR's, and then there were the OR's. The SR's were those who were sufficiently refored -- TULIP, Predestination, the whole shebang -- but they would at least discuss the issues openly. Then there were to OR's -- obnoxiously reformed. If you didn't believe or accept THEIR view of TULIP, predestination -- THE WHOLE SHEBANG -- well, you weren't elect, you were going to hell, and "why should I even listen to you? Who are you?"
I don't know hearts -- thank God for that. It's His job -- but guys, check the attitudes. If we're brothers, then can we not discuss these issues on which we disagree without condescension? Unless, you think I have "believed in vain..?"
JDale :tonofbricks:
I'll assure you sir that there was no condescension intended at all. When debating in this medium, it is hard to tell what a person's intentions are, without being able to see his facial expressions or voice inflection etc.
I hate people becoming contentious... and have even left these discussion because of such. Again, be assured, that was not my intention, and I appologize if I have come across as such.
reformedbeliever
New Member
JDale said:RB:
I've actually been "here" off and on for a year. I haven't posted here much until the last week or two.
I must say I'm troubled at the condescending tone of your post. Of course, You're not alone. Calvinists tend to have that attitude. And no, I don't wish to "bait you" or personally attack -- since that's usually the next charge leveled against non-Calvinists.
Please, RB, (JohnP, npetreley, et. al. -- or, WHOSOEVER IS CALVINIST, to qualify) Don't relegate anyone who doesn't agree with you to the status of mental midget or intellectual dwarf. It's kinda, well, insulting. I've been in ministry for nearly 20 years, and I've been teaching College level Bible and Theology for 9 years. I'm not stupid, and I've done just a little bit of study about these issies over the last almost 3 decades.
Now, does that mean I'm always right? Hardly. I am generally open to those who present different views -- within certain Biblical parameters anyway. But what troubles me about so many Calvinists is that they are RIGHT. If you disagree with them, with THEIR VIEW, you DISAGREE WITH GOD ALMIGHTY. Because, they are RIGHT. It's as though Calvinists -- by virtue of their elect status -- when given the Holy Spirit are given certain knowledge of their superior power of interpretation and theological knowledge. Too many can't even CONSIDER they might be wrong, much less say it. Because, they are the ELECT.
I'm "new" here. I suppose that's true. But I'm also a student of the Scriptures, a lover of the Lord, and a dedicated (though extraordinarily unworthy) Disciple. I'm not the sharpest pencil in the drawer, but God HAS given me some sense and intelligence -- and plenty of hours of study. Don't dismiss my view because it is not yours.
In Seminary, us "non-Calvinists" identified the Calvinists in two different groups on campus. There were the SR's, and then there were the OR's. The SR's were those who were sufficiently refored -- TULIP, Predestination, the whole shebang -- but they would at least discuss the issues openly. Then there were to OR's -- obnoxiously reformed. If you didn't believe or accept THEIR view of TULIP, predestination -- THE WHOLE SHEBANG -- well, you weren't elect, you were going to hell, and "why should I even listen to you? Who are you?"
I don't know hearts -- thank God for that. It's His job -- but guys, check the attitudes. If we're brothers, then can we not discuss these issues on which we disagree without condescension? Unless, you think I have "believed in vain..?"
JDale :tonofbricks:
JDale. Since you are a long time teacher and professor of theology, it would seem that you would know that this statement is untrue;
What is untrue about such a statement is that the majority of Calvinist believe that a man must exercise his faith in Jesus in order to enter into salvation. The majority of us simply do not believe that an exercise of the will is the reason one is born again. Being born again gives us the ability to exercise our will to believe. We are born again not of flesh or blood or the will of man, but of God.
But being that you are such a great theologian, and i'm not being sarcastic, i'm sure you miss-spoke. Thanks.
Hello JDale.
I wouldn't dream of saying God is at fault, how do you reach the conclusion I did? Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Rom 9:21.
RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
Without hearing the word of God?
PS 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Regardless of whose failure it is He knows who are going to Hell how can you say He doesn't create men for Hell? Why does He create people for fellowship with Him when He knows they do not want fellowship with Him and He knows He is going to send them to Hell?
Are you speaking for all Primitive Baptists? I must refuse the title if you are as I am an evangelist.
That's right but He proposed to do it through men and I proposed to take advantage of the blessings involved with the round up. If hyper-Calvinists, I take it that is what you mean, if hyper-Calvinists don't all the more for me.
But your logic is at fault. Jesus said, "If you love me you will obey Me." And He also said. "Make disciples."
I know he did. That's what I like about Spurgeon, he occasionally ended up in the ditch. That you end with Spurgeon is a shame since you did not think it prudent to use scripture anywhere. As an evangelist I believe God does His work through His word. so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it, ISA 55:11.
And Wesley wrote, Long my imprisoned spirit lay fast-bound in sin and nature's night.
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray; I woke--the dungeon flamed with light!
My chains fell off, my heart was free!
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee!
john.
I wouldn't dream of saying God is at fault, how do you reach the conclusion I did? Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Rom 9:21.
RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
Without hearing the word of God?
PS 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Regardless of whose failure it is He knows who are going to Hell how can you say He doesn't create men for Hell? Why does He create people for fellowship with Him when He knows they do not want fellowship with Him and He knows He is going to send them to Hell?
Are you speaking for all Primitive Baptists? I must refuse the title if you are as I am an evangelist.
That's right but He proposed to do it through men and I proposed to take advantage of the blessings involved with the round up. If hyper-Calvinists, I take it that is what you mean, if hyper-Calvinists don't all the more for me.
But your logic is at fault. Jesus said, "If you love me you will obey Me." And He also said. "Make disciples."
I know he did. That's what I like about Spurgeon, he occasionally ended up in the ditch. That you end with Spurgeon is a shame since you did not think it prudent to use scripture anywhere. As an evangelist I believe God does His work through His word. so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it, ISA 55:11.
And Wesley wrote, Long my imprisoned spirit lay fast-bound in sin and nature's night.
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray; I woke--the dungeon flamed with light!
My chains fell off, my heart was free!
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee!
john.
reformedbeliever said:
That's good RB. I appreciate sarcasm. Rally, I do -- It's one of my spiritual gifts too -- along with facetiousness.
In attempting to turn this into an actual discussion again, what you seem to be doing is separating the "new birth" (regeneration, justification, all that this entails) from the faith of the individual. The logical question then, is, what if the one "regenerated" simply refuses to believe? Or, if he CANNOT resist, then how is that faith? Faith implies a choice, a decision, a commitment. Not to mention the fact that it is faith that is "accounted for righteousness." This was true of Abraham, David, and all the NT saints and apostles. Hebrews 11 credits the necessity of faith to please God -- the enter His promises. Why does it not rather laud "regeneration" since THAT is what produces faith, and faith means nothing unless regeneration precedes it...?
Just some thoughts to ponder. You response will be interesting...
Blessings,
JDale
I remember my earlier comment on the fact that this thread did not have the usual misrepresentations that so often occur. That was unfortunately short-lived.
Furthermore, Calvinism does not necessarily hold that the non-elect were created with the sole purpose of "eternal damnation of hell-fire."
Calvinists do not have this tendency. In fact, calvinism and most Calvinists do fully affirm the necessity of faith for salvation.
This, as so many have done, confuses salvation with regeneration. To experience salvation, Calvinism believes that man must turn in faith to Christ as his only Savior. If he has no faith, then he is not saved.
Furthermore, Calvinism does not necessarily hold that the non-elect were created with the sole purpose of "eternal damnation of hell-fire."
I am not aware of any. We Calvinists have dealt with every Scripture that has been put forth.
We Calvinists love these verses because they so clearly teach the gracious love of God toward undeserving sinners.
Another phrase we love. We believe that "whosoever will" believe shall be saved. No one is omitted from that. Those who beleive will be saved. Those who do not believe will not be saved. There are none who desire to believe who will be turned away, and none who do not desire to believe who will be forced in.