Total Inability

"...If I be lifted up I draw all men to me..., Jesus." NO Need to assume, He has already done so!

In a certain sense the will of man is greater than that of God, but the choice using our free will remains our very own. When we refuse the invitation, our refusal is quite powerful for it condemns us to death.

In my 50 some years of being and observing Christians, I have never met one who was forced by God to be one, have you? Every one that I've observed, chose using his/her own free will, to believe in Jesus and thus be saved into eternal life. The Holy Scriptures do not describe a different way.

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is exactly what we have been talking about. Yelsew, thank you for your honesty.

I've certainly never met anyone who was forced by God to be a Christian, and I'm certain that no "Calvinist" on this board has either. However, every Christian that I've met was able to choose Christ because God overcame their stubborn, rebellious wills by His love and grace, and liberated them from the enslavement of sin so that they freely believed on Christ.

Rev. G

[ November 03, 2002, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

 

No - I am using the "frog" simply to show a state where choice is enabled.

It is also true that as the SINLESS MAN Adam ALSO had choice. But in this example - the frog state (while not at the level of sinnless Adam) simply represents supernatural transition from the innability - "rock" state period.

The idea that God can only give choice to a sinnless being - is missing from my argument.

Rather - my argument is that God is all-powerful AND He CAN DRAW the lost - enabling choice for the LOST - without transforming them first into sinless Adam.

In Christ,

Bob

 

IF "All mankind" John 12:32 is to be re-translated as "the arbitrarily select few of MAtt 7" or at least as "All TYPES of mankind" (as though we had several species of humans)

Then may we assume that the quote of Frogman above is another translation of Gen 3:22?

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 03, 2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

It was missing from mine, too. I think you misunderstood what I was suggesting. I'll try to simplify what I was saying in a moment.

It still sounds to me like you're saying that lost people have no free will. At some point God gives people free will ("enabling choice for the LOST"), which enables them to choose salvation. Isn't this what you're saying?

If so, when did/does God restore this free will to the lost, who have none? Does God grant it to individuals when they reach a certain age? Did it happen to the entire human race when Christ was crucified? If so, how do we manage to exercise this free will to choose salvation in spite of the fact that we are still slaves to sin?

And where is this theology in the Bible?

 

Rev G, Don't take what I said out of its context, it doesn't mean what I said the way you quoted it.

 

Then how did you mean it?

[ November 04, 2002, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

 

Amen!!

"Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth."

Psa. 110.3

 

I believe we are eternal beings; our bodies will die; this is a certainty because of sin; yet our souls are to be eternal, some day we shall as the saved of God obtain the resurrection from the dead at which time our body, soul and spirit will be reunited and we shall be prepared to live eternally in the Glorious presence of our Holy God.

Or, at some day, those lost shall be resurrected from the dead, body soul and spirit again reunited and prepared to endure enternity of the second death, but never dying.

This is not a "translation" of Gen. 3.22; but a truth of scripture that we were created to be eternal beings, whether in Heaven or in hell, we still, are eternal, having our senses etc.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Upon hearing the Gospel God makes it possible for all sinners to believe, [John 3:16] but He does not force them if they want to continue in their worldliness and sins. [John 5:40 & Acts 7:51]

 

Farley,

If you want to be a theologian move from the KJV and/or RSV into what the Greek says. Dr. Alford or Robertson will clear the matter up for you.

To get you started . . . In verse 46 you will see that the human agency determined whether the Jews as a group would receive Christ and His truth or whether they would reject His plan.

In verse 48 the Greek suggests strongly this. 'As many as were disposed to eternal life believed.'

The Catholic Vulgate and Augustinianism suggests that God disposes of souls at will, because of Augustine's arguments against 'free will' in his lifetime. Most of the translations never took time to research what the Greek said. Augustine never took one course in Greek; Latin was his forte. Are you beginning to see his preoccupation with deterministic theology. Many non-Catholics and/or Protestants are pleased as 'pudding' to just blindly follow along with Augustine and much later Calvin's rubber stamping of his truth.

Don't take my word for it check out Drs. Alford, Robertson, or Meyer.

 

I didn't know Augustine didn't know Greek. Thank you for that, Ray. Appreciated.

 

Yelsew,

You are right.

 

Why not skip their opinions and just look at the Greek itself?

Quite correct. Here are the verses, from 46-49:

But then you go on to say this...

Here is the word you are mistranslating as "disposed":

The actual word is tetagmenoi, the nominative plural masculine participle perfect passive of tasso (say that 3 times fast). The word is always rendered in some form of "ordained" or "ordered". There is no indication whatsoever that the appropriate rendering is "disposed". The only argument I've ever seen that tries to support "disposed" as a translation is a circular argument. It concludes that Romans 13:1 is also mistranslated:

The word for "ordained" here is tetagmenai. The free-will advocate maintains that this should actually be translated "set in order", meaning God arranged but did not predetermine the powers. This not only tortures the obvious meaning of the word, it is just double-talk to say "set in order", is not an act of predetermination. It also creates a contradiction in Scripture to say that God "set the powers in order" without predetermination, because we see in many places (especially in the OT) where God appoints ranks and leaders among human institutions, and does so for His own purpose.

So those who make this argument are deliberately mistranslating Romans 13:1 in order to justify their mistranslation of Acts 13:48, setting up a false foundation and compounding their error.

Why should I take their word for it when we can look at the Greek ourselves?

[ November 04, 2002, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

My greek teacher maintained that the word was the middle participle of tasso, so it could mean, "Those who ordained themselves." The Romans 13:1 would also take the middle tense.

 

So only people who know Greek have an validity when it comes to teaching the Bible? And this is being said on a Baptist board?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

So only people who know Greek have an validity when it comes to teaching the Bible? And this is being said on a Baptist board?

Ken
A Spurgeonite </font>[/QUOTE]I read this as a statement that was surprising considering how much of a foundation his work is to certain groups of Christians. The majority of the most well-known and well-versed theologians in the history of the Church have had a least a precursory knowledge of the language.

One need only look at the translation errors between the Jerome's Vulgate and the original text to cause one to raise an eyebrow about the whole thing, though.

 

First of all, it is unscriptural to suggest that people can ordain themselves to eternal life. But you're right that it can be middle or passive. Regardless, it couldn't be "those who ordained themselves" here because the Greek words are: [as many as] [were] [ordained] [to] [eternal] [life] [believed].

(Actually, the order is [believed] [as many as] [were] [appointed] [to] [life] [eternal].)

The closest you could get to something that didn't imply election would be, "as many as were ordaining to eternal life believed". But you have to insert "themselves" into the sentence to get close to the translation you want, and then you have to add some more missing words to make it "as many as were ordaining [themselves] [to the pursuit of] eternal life," since we cannot "ordain" ourselves to eternal life.

If one does that, one not only fails to give Luke credit for being able to express himself properly, one creates he only exception in the Bible where "tasso" is ever used to describe someone disposing ordination of anything to themselves with the word "tasso." "tasso" is used 8 times in the New Testament, and also appears in the LXX. Nowhere does it ever appear with the apparent meaning "they ordained themselves" -- as far as I know, it doesn't even appear in the context of ordaining oneself to the pursuit of something.

[ November 04, 2002, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

Deleted due to accidental duplication.

[ November 04, 2002, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]