Tozer- Calvinism tends to be more stable than Arminianism

[quantumfaith]

Think cannot allow to have God all knowing, as that seems to "jam up" his belief in the "total" free will of man!

Is that what Van is saying, that God is not omniscient? Is it really true that God cannot "forget" anything, even at His choice to do so?

"For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”

Hebrews 8:12

If God says I will remember their sins no more, does this reduce His Omniscience quotient....I think not.

 

[JesusFan]

Is that what Van is saying, that God is not omniscient? Is it really true that God cannot "forget" anything, even at His choice to do so?

"For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”

Hebrews 8:12

If God says I will remember their sins no more, does this reduce His Omniscience quotient....I think not.

Think there there are things not even God can do, IF they violate His narture and Attributes!

being able to just forget would fall under that!

And van tends to hold that God is literally not able to foresee future events until they occur, as when God "had to" ask to find where adam was, and God "had to see" IF Abraham would kill Isaac!

 

[quantumfaith]

Think there there are things not even God can do, IF they violate His narture and Attributes!

being able to just forget would fall under that!

And van tends to hold that God is literally not able to foresee future events until they occur, as when God "had to" ask to find where adam was, and God "had to see" IF Abraham would kill Isaac!

1. so what of the scripture that God says I will remember their sin no more. That does not imply that God may, if He so desires "forget".

2. I am not aware of Van's position of God "not knowing" something as you indicated. I personally do not share that view.

 

[Van]

Pay no attention to what Jesusfan says about my views of God knowing the future. No quote will be forthcoming. He is simply putting words in my mouth to misrepresent me.

Did I say God could not read Abraham like an open book and know whether he would be willing sacrifice his son? No. I said God could have chosen to do just that. Calvinism is defended by misrepresenting the views of those who oppose Calvinism. What Jesusfan is doing is attributing Open Theism positions to me. Why he would think such behavior is "ok" is beyond me, given all the verses that tell us we should not be false witnessness.

My position is the biblical position, where God brings about, causes to occur, what He has predestined. So the idea is not "foreseeing" a future, that exists "on the other side of time" but causing the future to occur as He said it will occur. This is the view clearly stated in scripture. All this baloney about "seeing" the future before God brings the future into existence is pagan Greek philosophy, not biblical doctrine. God declares the end from the beginning, what He says will happen He makes happen for no plan of God can be thwarted.

 

[Van]

Two things:

What about Arminianism (besides the accepted view on eternal security) do you think is false.
I bet I can show you that Arminianism represents what you believe very well.
Secondly, God cannot put knowledge out of his mind. That is silly and heterodox.
God cannot cease to be omniscient any more than God can cease to be omnipotent.
The moment God forgets or lacks in power at all is the moment God stops being God.
That is Theology 101.

Thanks, Luke, for actually presenting a theological position. I think it is unbiblical but lets discuss it and see where we end up.
I believe fallen man is able to seek God and put their faith in Christ. This is supported by Romans chapter 7 in my opinion. So this differs with Arminianism which says fallen man cannot seek God or trust in Christ unless aided by "prevenient grace."

I believe in conditional election, but I believe our individual election occurs during our lifetime and not before the foundation of the world, thus I believe Ephesians 1:4 addresses our corporate election, not our individual election for salvation. So this differs from Arminianism too.

I believe Christ died for all mankind, not just for the supposedly previously chosen individuals. I think this matches the Arminian view.

I believe God's grace can be resisted when God allows it to be resisted, and cannot be resisted when God does not allow it to be resisted. Those that hear and understand the call of the gospel have benefited from God's revealing grace. But those that hear and understand are not compelled to believe. Many are called but few are chosen. Now of those who put their trust in Christ to some degree, God may credit or not their faith as righteousness, and those whose faith He credits as righteousness, He spiritually places in Christ. This saving grace cannot be resisted or reversed. He keeps us by the power of God for our inheritance of eternal life.

I believe once a person is spiritually placed in Christ, they are saved forever, with their faith and devotion to Christ protected by God.

So as you can see, I am a one point Calvinist and one point Arminian.

You can claim God cannot put knowledge out of His mind, but about a dozen verses say God does put knowledge out of His mind. He tosses it into the sea. He puts it behind Him. Therefore my view is biblical and you have not one verse to support your contention that God is not able to do what He says He does.

I define Omniscience differently than you, but in a way accepted by many well studied Christians and one that is consistent with all scripture whereas your view nullifies scripture.

I say God has the power to remember no more our sins forever, and you say God cannot do what He promises over and over to do because that would mean He is not the God of your understanding. But He remains the God of the Bible.

Theology 101

 

[Don]

Well, hernia surgery turned out to be more than just a hernia; apparently, a third of my stomach was squeezing up into my chest cavity. Also had to do some esophageal repair. Recovery took three days longer than we expected. On the blessing side, the surgeon believes I'm now fixed of my acid reflux problem, and won't have to take nexium daily any more. Managed to walk down to the end of the block this afternoon; another similar walk before I go to bed tonight. Then we'll see what tomorrow brings.

This conversation has gone a long ways off Tozer, hasn't it?

--- edited to add:
Oh, and I'm stuck on a liquids only diet until next time I see the doctor. Of course, the wife has boxes of Ding Dongs and Hostess Cupcakes in the freezer, sitting right next to my popsicles. She's evil, I tell ya.

 

[quantumfaith]

Well, hernia surgery turned out to be more than just a hernia; apparently, a third of my stomach was squeezing up into my chest cavity. Also had to do some esophageal repair. Recovery took three days longer than we expected. On the blessing side, the surgeon believes I'm now fixed of my acid reflux problem, and won't have to take nexium daily any more. Managed to walk down to the end of the block this afternoon; another similar walk before I go to bed tonight. Then we'll see what tomorrow brings.

This conversation has gone a long ways off Tozer, hasn't it?

--- edited to add:
Oh, and I'm stuck on a liquids only diet until next time I see the doctor. Of course, the wife has boxes of Ding Dongs and Hostess Cupcakes in the freezer, sitting right next to my popsicles. She's evil, I tell ya.

So happy and thankful for the successful surgery. Blessings on your continued recovery.

 

[JesusFan]

Pay no attention to what Jesusfan says about my views of God knowing the future. No quote will be forthcoming. He is simply putting words in my mouth to misrepresent me.

Did I say God could not read Abraham like an open book and know whether he would be willing sacrifice his son? No. I said God could have chosen to do just that. Calvinism is defended by misrepresenting the views of those who oppose Calvinism. What Jesusfan is doing is attributing Open Theism positions to me. Why he would think such behavior is "ok" is beyond me, given all the verses that tell us we should not be false witnessness.

My position is the biblical position, where God brings about, causes to occur, what He has predestined. So the idea is not "foreseeing" a future, that exists "on the other side of time" but causing the future to occur as He said it will occur. This is the view clearly stated in scripture. All this baloney about "seeing" the future before God brings the future into existence is pagan Greek philosophy, not biblical doctrine. God declares the end from the beginning, what He says will happen He makes happen for no plan of God can be thwarted.

Please forgive me for misunderstanding your point in this doctrine of God and the Future BUT

You have posted several times here that God would be able to :"not know" all things that could possibly be known, that he chose to somehow "limit" His Omscience to all things...
As you seem to equate determinism as somehow being God knowing things, since he direct causes it!

perhaps not Open Theism, but Not Biblical view on this!

 

[mandym]

Did I say God could not read Abraham like an open book and know whether he would be willing sacrifice his son? No. I said God could have chosen to do just that.

It may or may not be all that scriptural, but either way it is not a big problem. I believe it is odd, but God choosing not to know is not anywhere near the same thing as God cannot know. We need to be fair to his view and not over exaggerate it. And to categorize it with Open Theism is clearly not a fair representation of what he said.

 

[JesusFan]

It may or may not be all that scriptural, but either way it is not a big problem. I believe it is odd, but God choosing not to know is not anywhere near the same thing as God cannot know. We need to be fair to his view and not over exaggerate it. And to categorize it with Open Theism is clearly not a fair representation of what he said.

I agree, did misunderstand to some degree, open theism NOT right choice of wording, just not seeing it as keeping God with His attrubute of Omnisience though in his position!

cannot see God as even having the option to "chose to know or not" as he MUST just know all things, as that is His very nature!

 

[Jerome]

Can we get back to the OP?

[Calvinist] denominations have certainly tended to withstand the onslaught of liberalism and heterodoxy a great deal better than "non-cals". . . .Calvinists tend to be more educated too, don't they?
It would be hard to prove this statistically I suppose, but it has been my experience everywhere I have been. . . .The main Presbyterian church in town, it has been my experience, tends to be the home church of the more educated folks.

Everywhere I've lived the "main Presbyterian church" has been quite liberal.

What's it like in your town, BBers?

 

[Bob Alkire]

Can we get back to the OP?



Everywhere I've lived the "main Presbyterian church" has been quite liberal.

What's it like in your town, BBers?

Today very liberal. Yesterday or a few days ago when I was young they were very conservative.

 

[quantumfaith]

Can we get back to the OP?



Everywhere I've lived the "main Presbyterian church" has been quite liberal.

What's it like in your town, BBers?

Where I live, First Pres is of the traditional conservative brand. Several smaller ones tend to be of the much more liberal brand.

 

[JesusFan]

Where I live, First Pres is of the traditional conservative brand. Several smaller ones tend to be of the much more liberal brand.

Which Presby group was one that voted on giving approval to ministers with 'alternate ;ifestyles" ok to minister?

Aren't they a lot klike we baptists, many different branches/groups?

 

[Van]

Hi Jesusfan, thanks for your candor.

Yes, I have said God is able to choose to know or not to know future events, because God is all-powerful and does as He pleases. All things are possible with God. Now this view would be pure conjecture if the asserted behavior was not demonstrated in scripture, but I believe it is.

For example, God can search our hearts and know how we would react to this or that circumstance, should God cause such a circumstance to occur. Thus Jesus can say if the people living in such and such a town had seen His miracles, they would have repented. But, on the other hand, God can choose not to search our hearts and know what we would do if a circumstance occurred. Thus He tested Abraham and when Abraham drew his knife, God said "now I know...." This means God did not know beforehand. Thus my view of God's capacity to choose not to know future events is based on scripture and not simply the logical necessity of being all-powerful. But it fits together.

Saying things like God must know everything imaginable because that is His nature is simply overwriting scripture with man-made doctrine. My view accepts scripture as written.

 

[jbh28]

The Bible teaches that God knows everything

Psalm 147:5, Hebrews 4:13, Job 23:10, Psalm 103:14, Psalm 139:23,24, John 21:17, Proverbs 15:3, Genesis 16:13, Romans 11:33-36, I John 3:20, Job 42:2, Psalm 42:2, Psalm 139, Proverbs 15:3, Jeremiah 16:17, Acts 1:24, Job 37:16

There are some things that may be difficult, but that doesn't negate the very clear biblical teaching that God "knows everything." One may say that God doesn't remember our sins. Sure, he doesn't "bring to mind" our sins. That doesn't mean he doesn't have knowledge of them. To teach this would negate ALL the other passages that say that God knows everything. It would also be reading something into the text that isn't there. It doesn't say God forgets. It doesn't say that God no longer knows. It says "remember no more." Any interpretation that teaches that God forgets is eisegesis.

 

[Rippon]

I have said God is able to choose to know or not to know future events,

Saying things like God must know everything imaginable because that is His nature is simply overwriting scripture with man-made doctrine.

Your view is quite unique among Bible-believing Christians. Actually it is non-existent. Your theory makes God a non-God. Does your pastor know about these beliefs of yours?

Edit ardon me. Winman is on your same wave length.

 

[glfredrick]

Which Presby group was one that voted on giving approval to ministers with 'alternate ;ifestyles" ok to minister?

Aren't they a lot klike we baptists, many different branches/groups?

There are different groups, and there was a break between the two groups earlier in the 20th century. The PCUSA is the more liberal group, while the PC America is the more conservative. The PCUSA is the group getting all the press for gay and women clergy, etc.

There are other small sects, like Baptists, that do their own thing, but the numbers are really of no major consequence (again, like many of the sects of Baptists).

 

[preacher4truth]

Psalm 147:5, Hebrews 4:13, Job 23:10, Psalm 103:14, Psalm 139:23,24, John 21:17, Proverbs 15:3, Genesis 16:13, Romans 11:33-36, I John 3:20, Job 42:2, Psalm 42:2, Psalm 139, Proverbs 15:3, Jeremiah 16:17, Acts 1:24, Job 37:16

There are some things that may be difficult, but that doesn't negate the very clear biblical teaching that God "knows everything." One may say that God doesn't remember our sins. Sure, he doesn't "bring to mind" our sins. That doesn't mean he doesn't have knowledge of them. To teach this would negate ALL the other passages that say that God knows everything. It would also be reading something into the text that isn't there. It doesn't say God forgets. It doesn't say that God no longer knows. It says "remember no more." Any interpretation that teaches that God forgets is eisegesis.

Exactly. This is why people who proof-text get in trouble. Look at the entire thing, not just "a verse."

- Peace

 

[webdog]

Your view is quite unique among Bible-believing Christians. Actually it is non-existent. Your theory makes God a non-God. Does your pastor know about these beliefs of yours?

Edit ardon me. Winman is on your same wave length.

Did Christ (who IS God) choose not to know the time of His return? If so...it's existent. Enough said.