Trad-Cal Dictionary

[TCassidy]

His text is Romans 5:6. You know, the scripture that says Christ died for the ungodly

Yes, Spurgeon preached the same Gospel we do.

 

[Dave G]

You are not seriously suggesting that the definition of a believer is a Calvinist, are you?

I don't recognize that term, sir, because it was pinned on people like me by those that disagree with it.

It was named after the most popular man who taught it within the last 500 years, but many others have independently understood Scripture apart from the teachings of men, and have seen it for themselves...William Tyndale was one of them, and Martin Luther appeared to see some of it and published his thoughts as well. I can't tell you if either one of them was definitely saved ( because I am not the Lord, obviously ), but they wrote things contrary to the religious institution of their day and were labeled as heretics because of it...things that ARE found in Scripture.

There is no such thing as a "Calvinist" and no such thing as an "Arminian" ( even though they are handy terms with which to identify those who have different understandings of His word ). There is only the natural man and the spiritual man ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ). There are only wheat, and tares. There are only those who really believe on Christ, and those that think they do. Finally, there are those who are growing in grace and knowledge, and whom God has not yet shown a fuller understanding of His word to.

He rewards them who diligently seek after Him...

What I'm "suggesting" is that believers will believe His word...all of it ( Matthew 4:4, John 8:47 ).

However, I know that takes much time and study ( which I've discovered by hard experience) in His word over years and years. I was born again in 1978 at the age of 12, and I didn't even see election until I was 37 due to neglect of Scripture. I didn't fully understand "Particular Redemption" until about a year ago, when God showed me what actually was accomplished at the cross, and for whom it was accomplished.


May His blessings rain down upon you, sir, until you stop in your tracks and fall on your face because of His grace to you.

 

[InTheLight]

I was born again in 1978 at the age of 12, and I didn't even see election until I was 37 due to neglect of Scripture. I didn't fully understand "Particular Redemption" until about a year ago, when God showed me what actually was accomplished at the cross, and for whom it was accomplished.

Are you saying you were born again (or regenerated) at age 12 but not justified by faith until age 37?

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[TCassidy]

#1 Born again at 12.
#2 Came to understand election at 37.
#3 Came to understand Particular Redemption last year.

One does not have to understand election in order to be saved.

One does not have to understand Particular Redemption in order to be saved.

 

[Dave G]

Are you saying you were born again (or regenerated) at age 12 but not justified by faith until age 37?

No, I'm saying that I didn't understand the full import of Who saved me and why I was saved. He had a lot to teach me from "point of conversion" until now, and I'm sure He has much more to teach me.

He is ultimately my Teacher ( 1 John 2:20, 27 and many others ) not men. I look to Scripture, and He shows me things...things that any child of the living God has the potential to see, if they'd only spend quality time with Him in His word.

I cannot emphasize this enough to my brothers and sisters out there. Read, read, read, read, read. Immerse yourselves in His word, brothers and sisters, and He will show you something the 41st time, when in the 40 times before that, it looked like something else. [ Click, understanding kicks in ] <----- I love these little smilie things...


" But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. " ( Hebrews 11:6 )

 

[Reynolds]

No, just another example of adjusting my Theology to fit the scriptures. Like it or not the bible tells us that faith is a gift. In this case it is a extraordinary grace-gift for a specific purpose, but a gift nevertheless. And the passage in question makes it clear all do not receive the same gifts but are given to select individuals "for the profit of all" (see verse 7).

Faith is a gift in instances. You also have natural faith which is learned. I learned that chairs usually hold me up so I had enough faith that this one would to sit in it. You also ha e faith that comes from hearing the Word. It is hard to get dogmatic about which type is working in certain instances,

 

[Yeshua1]

worst statement i've ever read on the internet.

I have read FAR worse, as mine was based upon what the scriptures teach, for if God intended to have all sinners saved by Cross of christ, they all would be!

 

[Yeshua1]

Mr. Mitchell,

The Gospel is not what saves a believer...Jesus does ( John 17:2 ) because they are given to Him by His Father ( John 6:65 ). The believer is saved "by" it:

" Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. " ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 )

In other words, it is the means by which a person is brought to the knowledge of His grace towards them.
God uses the preaching of His word to do many things, but towards Christ's sheep, it is used to "notify them" of their unspeakable gift of eternal life.



Best regards, sir.

The gospel message is good news to those whom were chosen to get saved by the Cross, but to those still dead in their sins and transgressions, it produces even more hardening to them, its bad news.

 

[Yeshua1]

Right. He said the gospel was a means to an end. That end being the Father giving the elect to the Son.

Why not just have the Father save the elect? Have the Father give to the Son the elect and not even have the need for Jesus to be crucified, dead and buried, and risen again? That's the gospel, after all.

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God has ordained that the gospel message is the way to have the Spirit produce His saving work to the elect in Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't recognize that term, sir, because it was pinned on people like me by those that disagree with it.

It was named after the most popular man who taught it within the last 500 years, but many others have independently understood Scripture apart from the teachings of men, and have seen it for themselves...William Tyndale was one of them, and Martin Luther appeared to see some of it and published his thoughts as well. I can't tell you if either one of them was definitely saved ( because I am not the Lord, obviously ), but they wrote things contrary to the religious institution of their day and were labeled as heretics because of it...things that ARE found in Scripture.

There is no such thing as a "Calvinist" and no such thing as an "Arminian" ( even though they are handy terms with which to identify those who have different understandings of His word ). There is only the natural man and the spiritual man ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ). There are only wheat, and tares. There are only those who really believe on Christ, and those that think they do. Finally, there are those who are growing in grace and knowledge, and whom God has not yet shown a fuller understanding of His word to.

He rewards them who diligently seek after Him...

What I'm "suggesting" is that believers will believe His word...all of it ( Matthew 4:4, John 8:47 ).

However, I know that takes much time and study ( which I've discovered by hard experience) in His word over years and years. I was born again in 1978 at the age of 12, and I didn't even see election until I was 37 due to neglect of Scripture. I didn't fully understand "Particular Redemption" until about a year ago, when God showed me what actually was accomplished at the cross, and for whom it was accomplished.


May His blessings rain down upon you, sir, until you stop in your tracks and fall on your face because of His grace to you.

Augustine and others way before calvin and Luther taught it. They derived it from the teachings of Jesus and Paul, and there are basically 2 view on salvation. The ones who hold that God alone saves us, and those who have us assisting/co operating with him in the process.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No, I'm saying that I didn't understand the full import of Who saved me and why I was saved. He had a lot to teach me from "point of conversion" until now, and I'm sure He has much more to teach me.

He is ultimately my Teacher ( 1 John 2:20, 27 and many others ) not men. I look to Scripture, and He shows me things...things that any child of the living God has the potential to see, if they'd only spend quality time with Him in His word.

I cannot emphasize this enough to my brothers and sisters out there. Read, read, read, read, read. Immerse yourselves in His word, brothers and sisters, and He will show you something the 41st time, when in the 40 times before that, it looked like something else. [ Click, understanding kicks in ] <----- I love these little smilie things...


" But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. " ( Hebrews 11:6 )

God uses teachers to teach us His word, too. That's the danger of those who only use their bible and the Holy Spirit. God gave us men, men He placed in our lives, to help us better understand His word.

That's why church attendance is vital to spiritual growth.

 

[Dave G]

That's why church attendance is vital to spiritual growth.

Strictly speaking I would have to disagree, but it's a fine line I am making my disagreement on:

I see in Scripture where this thing called "church" is not a building full of people, but a gathering of God's people under one roof as a spiritual temple. Where tow or three are gathered together, there He is in the midst of us ( Matthew 18:20 ). Fellowship, or assembling together ( Hebrews 10:24-25 ), is what is important ( not "going to church", IMO ), and it's how believers exercise their spiritual gifts and edify one another ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).

To me, it can happen in a pole barn in the middle of a cornfield, or in a plush "sanctuary" ( I would hope that people wouldn't waste money that could be used meeting their brothers and sisters needs, or in doing good works like feeding the poor, on such extravagance ) on some street corner, or in someone's living room.

I'm learning right now that being a "Lone Ranger" believer is not what God wants me to do.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Strictly speaking I would have to disagree, but it's a fine line I am making my disagreement on:

I see in Scripture where this thing called "church" is not a building full of people, but a gathering of God's people under one roof as a spiritual temple. Where tow or three are gathered together, there He is in the midst of us ( Matthew 18:20 ). Fellowship, or assembling together ( Hebrews 10:24-25 ), is what is important ( not "going to church", IMO ), and it's how believers exercise their spiritual gifts and edify one another ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).

To me, it can happen in a pole barn in the middle of a cornfield, or in a plush "sanctuary" ( I would hope that people wouldn't waste money that could be used meeting their brothers and sisters needs, or in doing good works like feeding the poor, on such extravagance ) on some street corner, or in someone's living room.

I'm learning right now that being a "Lone Ranger" believer is not what God wants me to do.

I agree the church is not the building but the ppl. Yet, these ppl come together to praise and worship God through singing, teaching, preaching His word. It is through the gathering together of God's ppl that they learn discipleship, how to live Godly in an ungodly world.

I'm learning right now that being a "Lone Ranger" believer is not what God wants me to do

 

[Dave G]

Now, back to the Trad-Cal dictionary:

I'm sorry Mr. Mitchell, but it appears that you and I will never agree about how and why God saves a person. Whatever can be said by either side, it basically boils down to this...

I see you believing that man's rebellious will, while prepared by God to be receptive to the Gospel and thereby ( theoretically ) opening to all men the potential to understand it and to believe on Christ, is the determining factor in salvation; while what many people like me see, when they read Scripture, is God being selective about who He saves, and that salvation is a gift bestowed upon certain men.

Like John Wesley and many others, you believe in what I have determined to be a myth..."Prevenient Grace"...and the general atonement of Christ for all, which can be substantiated by what I have determined to be a few out-of-context Scriptures;
While I, like Charles Spurgeon, Augustus Toplady, Jonathan Edwards and William Tyndale, believes in "Electing Grace" and the definite atonement of Christ for His sheep, and His sheep alone.

Undoubtedly you and I will never agree apart from God causing it. For that I am truly sorry.
But in all honesty, I cannot read what was presented at the start of this thread and come up with anything more to say except:

"What purpose did you have in posting this, except to poke fun at my understanding of salvation?"

As I see it, you basically claim that people like me re-define Scripture in an attempt to hold to my position, yet you must know that what I believe is certainly the most hated set of doctrines in all of visible Christianity ( even cursed by the largest religious institution of men on Earth )...In other words, I know full well that this is going to be rejected by most who profess Christ, yet I honestly hold to it and show Scriptures that, if taken literally and at face value, clearly declare it. What's more is, I can show you my understanding of other Scriptures that comprehensively and in great detail explain how and why God saves someone, and it apparently makes no difference.

I also know that the best that can be done in reply to my position essentially results in a stalemate...but with respect, this isn't a chess game. I'm not in it to win, I'm in it to declare what I see, come whatever may, and if people believe, then I rejoice. If people don't, I figure they either will some day, or they never will.

Do some of us like me question the salvation of those who resist it, seemingly tooth and nail? I would be lying if I said, "no". Do I question yours? I don't know you well enough to say "yes", as that would require what I believe to be a face-to-face association and fellowship over a long period of time.



But by God's grace in granting me His patience and Christ's meekness, I will never poke fun at people like you, nor will I ever again get angry at what I see to be false doctrine...though I once did. I could say quite a lot of things in reply to the "dictionary", but it would only be responding in kind and descending into strife, which the Lord does not wish me to do. When He was reviled by those that hated His doctrine and His Person, He did not revile them, and I am duty-bound to follow His leading, no matter where it goes.

If you ever have any questions about why I see Scripture the way I do, I will be more than happy to answer anything you seriously inquire about, and I will do so using only God's word and my sincere and honestly held understanding of it.


I wish you well, sir, and may He be the center of your existence for an eternity to come.


Je suis fini, mes amis.
No more posts for me on this thread.

 

[Revmitchell]

There is no such thing as a "Calvinist" and no such thing as an "Arminian" ( even though they are handy terms with which to identify those who have different understandings of His word ). There is only the natural man and the spiritual man ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ).

Except the context of those passages do not describe the lost man and the saved man, they describe those who rely on worldly thinking verse spiritual thinking. As Paul often did he was correct believers in the way they were handling things.

 

[JonShaff]

I have read FAR worse, as mine was based upon what the scriptures teach, for if God intended to have all sinners saved by Cross of christ, they all would be!

Red herring...you use the term "intended" and act as if God didn't command something particular about how to receive His Gift...The BIBLE clearer teaches that "all that call upon the Lord" will be saved. So, yes...God will save everyone...who calls upon Him.

 

[TCassidy]

So, yes...God will save everyone...who calls upon Him.

And who will call upon Him?

 

[JonShaff]

And who will call upon Him?

Those who believe

 

[TCassidy]

Those who believe

And who will believe?

 

[JonShaff]

And who will believe?

Those that call on the Lord