37818
Well-Known Member
Makes me think about Matthew's gosple. How ever in Hebrew or Aramaic Jesus said "the kingdom of God" Matthew in his account alternated the Greek for heaven with the Greek for God.
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Translating into Japanese
- Thread starter John of Japan
- Start date
A very valid parallel.
Another of our semantic innovations was in the translation of "kingdom of God." The traditional way to translate that is Kami no mikuni (御国), which is "the honorable nation (or country) of God." We felt that did not convey the concept of "kingdom" (Greek βασιλεία), since an "honorable nation" does not necessarily have a king, but the kingdom of God does.
This is a rendering where the traditional translators have probably thought the honorific prefix, showing honor to such a great kingdom, was more important that semantic accuracy. We didn't see it that way, believing that turning a kingdom into just a country missed the whole point of God having a kingdom.
This is a rendering where the traditional translators have probably thought the honorific prefix, showing honor to such a great kingdom, was more important that semantic accuracy. We didn't see it that way, believing that turning a kingdom into just a country missed the whole point of God having a kingdom.
Don't have time right now, but on Monday I plan to take through the book of John and show how renderings were modified, changed and corrected by the team.
How about John 3:16
Including John 3:16. An interesting conundrum there involving "only begotten, which of course I will discuss.
In John 1:1, we wanted to go with "Logos" (ロゴス), then give a substantial footnote explaining. This would be written in the katakana alphabet (Japanese has two alphabets), which is used for foreign words. From there we went to the kanji word kotoba (言葉), with a very wide meaning like the original Greek logos (λόγος) had. However, we then decided to use the katakana word for the furigana ("ruby" pronunciation marks) over the word in the text. Well, we finally went with tradition, using kotoba with the usual hiragana (the main alphabet) characters for the furigana. We then added a long footnote.
Sound complicated? Then imagine trying to run this by the various team members, each with a strong personality and a good linguistic sense.
A further complication is that there is an ancient Japanese word kotodama (言霊), meaning "a word with power" (literally, "word of spirit"). Few Japanese readers would know the full implications, however, and also it has religious implications based on Shinto, so we did not go with it.
Interestingly enough, the Chinese Union Version (usually fairly literal) gets a little dynamic and uses the character for "way, road" (道, dao) instead of a word for "word," ending up with, "In the great beginning was the way...." This could have been an attempt to equate Jesus to the "way" of Taoism, which is literally, "The Teaching of the Way."
Sound complicated? Then imagine trying to run this by the various team members, each with a strong personality and a good linguistic sense.
A further complication is that there is an ancient Japanese word kotodama (言霊), meaning "a word with power" (literally, "word of spirit"). Few Japanese readers would know the full implications, however, and also it has religious implications based on Shinto, so we did not go with it.
Interestingly enough, the Chinese Union Version (usually fairly literal) gets a little dynamic and uses the character for "way, road" (道, dao) instead of a word for "word," ending up with, "In the great beginning was the way...." This could have been an attempt to equate Jesus to the "way" of Taoism, which is literally, "The Teaching of the Way."
Here is another Japanese term we had to be careful of. You may remember being taught that there are two functions of a Biblical prophet: foretelling and forthtelling. We non-Charismatics generally believe that the foretelling aspect of the prophetic office passed away with the completion of the canon.
There are two words for "prophet" in the Japanese language, both pronounced the same, yogensha (預言者 and 予言者). The first one has the meaning in the first Chinese character of "to keep in custody." (預かる - Jisho.org). For the second word, the meaning in compounds is to predict. (予言 - Jisho.org). What we definitely do not want is sensha (占者), "fortune teller."
The term "prophet" in Bible usually means a servant of God who has received a word from God. Thus, the first Japanese word fits the bill admirably. However, when we translate 1 Samuel 9, where Samuel is called a "seer," we're going to have to investigate more. The main conservative version uses the term yokensha (予見者), one who sees ahead. Further research as to the contemporary usage of these terms will be necessary when we get to this passage.
There are two words for "prophet" in the Japanese language, both pronounced the same, yogensha (預言者 and 予言者). The first one has the meaning in the first Chinese character of "to keep in custody." (預かる - Jisho.org). For the second word, the meaning in compounds is to predict. (予言 - Jisho.org). What we definitely do not want is sensha (占者), "fortune teller."
The term "prophet" in Bible usually means a servant of God who has received a word from God. Thus, the first Japanese word fits the bill admirably. However, when we translate 1 Samuel 9, where Samuel is called a "seer," we're going to have to investigate more. The main conservative version uses the term yokensha (予見者), one who sees ahead. Further research as to the contemporary usage of these terms will be necessary when we get to this passage.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled translation, the book of John!
The main difficulty in John 3:16 is what to translate from monogenes (μονογενής), "only begotten" in the KJV. The typical modern lexicons will say something like "unique."
Many modern versions go with "one and only" (NIV, NLT, NASB20), or "only" (ESV), citing recent research. The NKJV still has "only begotten," as does the original NASV.
One translation principle I have is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. In other words, if the traditional rendering is still valid (some are not), why change it? So though I rendered in my first draft yuiitsu (唯一), "unique," we had yuiitsu umareta (唯一生まれた), "uniquely begotten" in our final draft. Lexicons such as BAGD, Abbot-Smith, and Friberg still include "only begotten" as a meaning. Why change the rendering just to follow a fad? (And there are fads in Bible translation.) 
Furthermore, "only begotten" is more accurate theologically, in my view. We are also sons of God by adoption, but Jesus is the only Son of God who is virgin born of God the Father!
The main difficulty in John 3:16 is what to translate from monogenes (μονογενής), "only begotten" in the KJV. The typical modern lexicons will say something like "unique."
Many modern versions go with "one and only" (NIV, NLT, NASB20), or "only" (ESV), citing recent research. The NKJV still has "only begotten," as does the original NASV.
One translation principle I have is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
In other words, if the traditional rendering is still valid (some are not), why change it? So though I rendered in my first draft yuiitsu (唯一), "unique," we had yuiitsu umareta (唯一生まれた), "uniquely begotten" in our final draft. Lexicons such as BAGD, Abbot-Smith, and Friberg still include "only begotten" as a meaning. Why change the rendering just to follow a fad? (And there are fads in Bible translation.) Furthermore, "only begotten" is more accurate theologically, in my view. We are also sons of God by adoption, but Jesus is the only Son of God who is virgin born of God the Father!
37818
Well-Known Member
Biblically, not until the resurrection, Romans 8:23. Compare 1 John 3:2. The Greek as I understand it, means as a son, being placed, given an inheritence. The Son of God being the first, per Psalms 2:7, Acts 13:33, Colossians 1:18.
John, please I am stating my understanding. Please just continue. This is not to debate you, or your view. Thank you for your patence here.
Hey, no problem. I'm presenting translation here rather than strict theology, so I appreciate your contribution.
Two difficulties Uncle Miya helped me with early on was names: people, locations, movements, etc. Most cultures without a Christian history are not going to understand the names in the Bible. In John 4:3 we have the term "Judea." In his notes Uncle Miya wondered if this was a place name, a prefecture name, a state name a person's name, or a river name. Here is the verse. Note his words in parentheses.
３ イエスはユダヤ地方（の地？県？洲？）を去り、ふたたびガリラヤ地方（の地？県？）に入って行かれた。
He then wrote, "Difficult to know to tell from a man from a town, a river; Town name, district name, river name, country name, should be translated as readers would know what they read; a city, a man, a mountain?"
Example: for the Jordan River, the original just has "Jordan," but Uncle Miya wanted to add "river," as in ヨルダン川, where the Japanese katakana alphabet word is "Jordan" (Yorudan) and the Chinese character is "river."
３ イエスはユダヤ地方（の地？県？洲？）を去り、ふたたびガリラヤ地方（の地？県？）に入って行かれた。
He then wrote, "Difficult to know to tell from a man from a town, a river; Town name, district name, river name, country name, should be translated as readers would know what they read; a city, a man, a mountain?"
Example: for the Jordan River, the original just has "Jordan," but Uncle Miya wanted to add "river," as in ヨルダン川, where the Japanese katakana alphabet word is "Jordan" (Yorudan) and the Chinese character is "river."
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One big decision that a translator must make is how to render weights, measures, distances, etc. Early on we decided to go with transliterations + footnotes. So, in John 6:19 we have "furlongs," which is the Greek stadios (στάδιος). We transliterated with the katakana alphabet: スタディオン. Then we footnoted that with タディオン： 五.六キロメートル, or "stadion: 5.6 meters."
Note that the translator has to translate or clarify in the measuring system of the target culture. In modern Japan, the metric system is used, so that makes it somewhat easy to footnote distance measurement. However, think of how difficult it may be for a missionary translator working in a tribal culture to translate measurements like this. The typical tribal language will probably not have a word for a longer distance. Tough going!
Note that the translator has to translate or clarify in the measuring system of the target culture. In modern Japan, the metric system is used, so that makes it somewhat easy to footnote distance measurement. However, think of how difficult it may be for a missionary translator working in a tribal culture to translate measurements like this. The typical tribal language will probably not have a word for a longer distance. Tough going!
Another thing that makes Japanese semantics is knowing which word for "person" to use. There are three: mono (者), hito (人), and kata (方). The first one is the "humble" one which you use for yourself in the third person. The second is the normal word for person. The third is the polite word.
So you use the polite term for God--no problem. The difficulty comes in knowing which one to use in narration. Are we supposed to look down on the guy and use the first one? In a generic usage, which is best? And so forth.
Another relationship that is sometimes difficult to translate is the sibling relationship. As in many languages, there are different words for "older brother/sister" and "younger brother/sister." So what if we don't know the relationship, as is often the sake in Scripture? Fortunately, unlike some such languages, Japanese has generic words for brother and sister that we can use. And sometimes the relationship is clear, as in the case of Jesus and His brothers and sisters.
But then you have two versions of each family relationship: the inner family relationship and the outer relationship. So to your father you say Otohsan (お父さん), but to someone else, you call him Chichi (父). But you can also say the more traditional polite Chichiue (父上) sometimes, meaning, "Dad above." Got all that?
So you use the polite term for God--no problem. The difficulty comes in knowing which one to use in narration. Are we supposed to look down on the guy and use the first one? In a generic usage, which is best? And so forth.
Another relationship that is sometimes difficult to translate is the sibling relationship. As in many languages, there are different words for "older brother/sister" and "younger brother/sister." So what if we don't know the relationship, as is often the sake in Scripture? Fortunately, unlike some such languages, Japanese has generic words for brother and sister that we can use. And sometimes the relationship is clear, as in the case of Jesus and His brothers and sisters.
But then you have two versions of each family relationship: the inner family relationship and the outer relationship. So to your father you say Otohsan (お父さん), but to someone else, you call him Chichi (父). But you can also say the more traditional polite Chichiue (父上) sometimes, meaning, "Dad above." Got all that?
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
What I'd really like to hear is several Japanese arguing about which to use, and which they choose to address each other with as the argument "progresses."
What I'd really like to hear is several Japanese arguing about which to use, and which they choose to address each other with as the argument "progresses."
John of Japan - is it true - that if you have 5 Japanese Baptists - you will have 7 opinions?
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Maybe. But only one will count.
Aha. Then they are using the second person personal pronoun. If you are being nice you say, Anata (あなた). If you are talking down to a younger person you say Kimi (君). If you are looking down on someone inferior to you, you say Omae (お前).What I'd really like to hear is several Japanese arguing about which to use, and which they choose to address each other with as the argument "progresses."
But then it gets complicated. What if you are talking to the emperor?!?
Well, of course, they're still Baptists, aren't they??
Here is another difficult rendering.
Just as there are two forms of the word "person," Japanese has two plurals for the word: hitotachi (人たち) and hitobito (人々). For the life of me, I've never figured out the difference. Which should be used when?
However, lest you judge me for not knowing this despite professional training in Japanese and 33 years on the field, virtually no Japanese knows the difference either! I asked many to explain it to me, and I got explanations all right. But they didn't agree with each other! So I learned that often native speakers cannot tell you details about their own language!
Here is a website where two writers disagreed about this very usage: Why is 人たち preferred over 人々 or 人 in the following sentence?
Just as there are two forms of the word "person," Japanese has two plurals for the word: hitotachi (人たち) and hitobito (人々). For the life of me, I've never figured out the difference. Which should be used when?
However, lest you judge me for not knowing this despite professional training in Japanese and 33 years on the field, virtually no Japanese knows the difference either! I asked many to explain it to me, and I got explanations all right. But they didn't agree with each other! So I learned that often native speakers cannot tell you details about their own language!
Here is a website where two writers disagreed about this very usage: Why is 人たち preferred over 人々 or 人 in the following sentence?
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