Translating Lamb as Pig and Snow as Wool

[John of Japan]

Someone please tell me the four distinct meanings of love in Hebrew, i would be much abliged.

Crabtownboy spoke of four Greek words for love. Do you mean this, rather than four Hebrew words?

The four words (actually a few more if you count both noun and verb and compound forms) in Greek are:

(1) agape (verb agapao)--love which is a choice according to the Fribergs' Analytical Lexicon definition, which I agree with.

(2) philos (verb phileo)--the love of friendship; there are also compounds of this word occuring in the NT, like philadelphia in Rom. 12:10 and four other places.

(3) storge--natural love, like that of a mother for child, or siblings for each other (this word only occurs in compounds in the NT, like philostorgos in Rom. 12:10).

(4) eros--romantic love, physical love, a word not occuring in the NT.

 

[salzer mtn]

Crabtownboy spoke of four Greek words for love. Do you mean this, rather than four Hebrew words?

The four words (actually a few more if you count both noun and verb and compound forms) in Greek are:

(1) agape (verb agapao)--love which is a choice according to the Fribergs' Analytical Lexicon definition, which I agree with.

(2) philos (verb phileo)--the love of friendship; there are also compounds of this word occuring in the NT, like philadelphia in Rom. 12:10 and four other places.

(3) storge--natural love, like that of a mother for child, or siblings for each other (this word only occurs in compounds in the NT, like philostorgos in Rom. 12:10).

(4) eros--romantic love, physical love, a word not occuring in the NT.

Yes Greek, thank you. Now which of the four applies to St. John 3:16

 

[John of Japan]

Yes Greek, thank you. Now which of the four applies to St. John 3:16

The verb in John 3:16 is agapao, related to the noun agape, which in my view means a love based on choice. That is, God loved us not because of anything we are or have done, but because He chooses to. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

 

[salzer mtn]

Thanks John.

 

[Aaron]

When the target language does not have a certain word, there are two strategies a translator can use:

(1) As already mentioned, transliteration with an explanatory footnote is one strategy. That is when you carry the spelling of the original word right into the target document, like "baptism" from Greek. The word then may become a "loan word," carrying the meaning of the original into the target language as the reader learns the original meaning and transfers the meaning to the new word in his language. A loan word has become normal word in the target language, like "sushi" has become in English.

(2) You can translate the original word with a phrase. There is no word in Japanese for justification, so we translate it with gi to mitomeru, which is "recognized as righteous." So "sheep" in a society that doesn't keep sheep can be, "a white, docile animal."

Rendering "sheep" or "lamb" as "pig" or "piglet" is not translation, but paraphrase. It doesn't even meet the standards of dynamic equivalence, (a method which I oppose), in that the reader's response to "pig" would not be the same as a 1st century Jew's response to "sheep" by any means.

You use the term "primitive people," which I feel is a mistake. There is no such thing as a "primitive person," because tribal people, while not advanced technologically, are just as capable as the typical American, with the same brain capacity, gifts and abilities, and potential for Christ.

Also, there is no such thing as a primitive language. Tribal languages are just as complex and capable of conveying meaning as English. Though without special sets of modern technical vocabulary (engineering, medicine, etc.), they may even have their own sets of technical vocabulary not known by an American: words for snow in Alaska, words for jungle plants and animals, etc.

Edited in: One other thing. After Christianity comes, education always, always follows. Literacy is taught, being necessary for the believers to learn to read their Bible. With education comes further sophistication, so that the tribal Christian can easily learn what snow or a sheep are. If his Bible then has "pig" when he is educated enough to learn what a sheep is, he loses confidence in his Bible translation, which can be a very bad result.

:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[annsni]

John, I just once again want to thank you for being here. You have given me insight into Bible translation that I would not have otherwise had and it has been very eye opening. You have such a difficult job and I greatly appreciate men like you who commit their lives to the preservation of God's Word and the accessibility of it for all languages.

 

[John of Japan]

John, I just once again want to thank you for being here. You have given me insight into Bible translation that I would not have otherwise had and it has been very eye opening. You have such a difficult job and I greatly appreciate men like you who commit their lives to the preservation of God's Word and the accessibility of it for all languages.

I enjoy being here, and I'm glad my posts on translation are helpful.

God bless.:wavey:

 

[Mexdeaf]

John, I just once again want to thank you for being here. You have given me insight into Bible translation that I would not have otherwise had and it has been very eye opening. You have such a difficult job and I greatly appreciate men like you who commit their lives to the preservation of God's Word and the accessibility of it for all languages.

I concur.:thumbsup:

 

[John of Japan]

I concur.:thumbsup:

Great, brother!

 

[robycop3]

Most British of the 1500s had prolly not ever seen a camel, but their Bibles still read "camel" where that animal was mentioned in the ancient mss.

 

[John of Japan]

Most British of the 1500s had prolly not ever seen a camel, but their Bibles still read "camel" where that animal was mentioned in the ancient mss.

Good point!

 

[Crabtownboy]

Most British of the 1500s had prolly not ever seen a camel, but their Bibles still read "camel" where that animal was mentioned in the ancient mss.

You are probably right, but on the other hand almost no one could read in that time.

 

[John of Japan]

You are probably right, but on the other hand almost no one could read in that time.

Down through history, I think it would be fair to say that translating the Bible has been the impetus for most if not almost all literacy movements. When the English Bible became available to the average person in the pew thanks to Tyndale and his tribe, IMO that triggered the modern trend aiming towards 100% literacy in first world countries. Even now, literacy programs follow Bible translation work, so that in tribes and 3rd world countries around the world missionaries are teaching people to read the Bibles they have translated.

 

[Dr. Bob]

(slight tangent) My sending church supported a missionary to Argentina. He came back and said one of the biggest challenges he had was to teach people there to read and understand 1611 Jacobean English so that they could truly understand the Word of God.

Thankfully, the church dropped his support for heresy. If they hadn't I would have asked them to take me off their rolls.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

In the thread in General Baptist Discussions, "I have to know. What changed Billy's Mind," Crabtownboy suggested that the renderings in the OP title were necessary. I disagree.

Here is what Crabtownboy wrote there:

As a Bible translator, I have to say there is no need for such subterfuges as this. To translate a lamb (Christ the Lamb of God) as a pig or snow as wool does three things wrong:

(1) It dumbs down the Scripture. People who live where there are pigs but no sheep, or wool but no snow are entirely capable of understanding such things with only a little bit of explanation.

(2) It thus disrespects the reader, saying in essence that they are too dumb to understand what a lamb is or snow is simply because it doesn't exist where they are. (If I explain a Japanese snow monkey to you, could you understand? Of course you could.) When those nationals get educated after reading such a Bible and find out what snow and a lamb really are, they then lose confidence in their Bible translation.

(3) Such renderings tear at the very fabric of the illustrations involved. In the case of the snow, new fallen snow is pure white, but wool is not. In the case of the lamb, the illustration rests on the OT sacrificial system, in which the pig is an abomination.

It is better to transliterate the word snow or lamb. Then, simple footnotes can give the meaning. Easy, accurate, educational.

I bet in Japan you live where there are no Jews, but they know what a Jew is. Just sayin'. I'm in agreement with you, John.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

(slight tangent) My sending church supported a missionary to Argentina. He came back and said one of the biggest challenges he had was to teach people there to read and understand 1611 Jacobean English so that they could truly understand the Word of God.

Thankfully, the church dropped his support for heresy. If they hadn't I would have asked them to take me off their rolls.

Dr. Bob, I respectfully disagree. What that missionary was doing was trying to teach the people he was ministering to the Word of God according to the convictions he had about what IT IS. That is not (heresy) because an adherence to the KJV only is still an adherence to a translation that unquestionably IS the Word of God. If he was trying to teach them the NWT, the Living Bible or Good News For Modern Man or something like that then I'd join in your objection. If however,he has or did succeed in teaching these Argentinians what he was teaching them they would have learned a version of the Bible that has been blessed by God for 400+ years. That is NOT heresy and never will be. I have to take exception personally because in essence you just called me a heretic...and I am offended by that. I am no heretic. (for the record,I have already forgiven you for that) If I am then I ought to be banned from this board and thrown out of the church I attend. If that were to happen then I would go out the door confessing that I LOVE God and His Son,the Lord Jesus Christ,His Blood that was shed for me on Calvary and His precious,holy, preserved Word of God. For me that Word will always be the KJV. I just believe as a 58 year old man and nearly 40 year old believer in Christ that we need to be careful and precise when we use the label "heretic" or "heresy". As I said...I mean you no disrespect. I personally believe that the Judgement Seat of Christ will correct any disagreements or errors in thinking that we have here and that our focus in the years remaining ought to be less arguing and more about doing all we can to do our part in working the "fields of harvest" as we labor in the Great Commission. By the way...there is no such thing as "church rolls" in the NT. If there are and I maybe missed that verse, please supply same:tongue3:.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[John of Japan]

(slight tangent) My sending church supported a missionary to Argentina. He came back and said one of the biggest challenges he had was to teach people there to read and understand 1611 Jacobean English so that they could truly understand the Word of God.

Thankfully, the church dropped his support for heresy. If they hadn't I would have asked them to take me off their rolls.

I've taught Japanese modern day English, and that's hard enough without trying to teach them 1611 English!

 

[Jkdbuck76]

I've taught Japanese modern day English, and that's hard enough without trying to teach them 1611 English!

Maybe you need to make a belt ranking system for them. That should motivate them. And if they cannot get their thee's and thou's right, then make them watch "Superbook" and "Flying House" until they learn.

 

[John of Japan]

Maybe you need to make a belt ranking system for them. That should motivate them. And if they cannot get their thee's and thou's right, then make them watch "Superbook" and "Flying House" until they learn.

Well, that's a wild idea, bro!

They don't have belts for learning English over here, but they do have a similar ranking system to that of the martial arts for: flower arranging, the tea ceremony, Shogi (Japanese chess), Igo (the "go" game with white and black stones), etc.

 

[Aaron]

You are probably right, but on the other hand almost no one could read in that time.

So when it was preached, did they say "camel" or "pony?"