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Transubstantiation!!
- Thread starter nate
- Start date
I checked with Catholic site whether it mentions any timing of the transubstantiation, but in vain. They don't mention specifically when transubstantiation occurs, and how it occurs.
When Jesus said: Mt 26:26-28
Take, eat; this is my body. 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Did Disciples eat the Flesh (cooked or uncooked?) and Blood indeed at the first Lord's Supper ?
1) Why don't they allow the test of the substance as Jesus told Thomas to check His body after resurrection?
2) Why RC doesn't allow the laymen/laywomen to drink the Blood? (only Flesh?)
3) I don't object to Real Presence. But if Real Presence means Bread and Wine becomes real substance of Jesus Christ, then it will cause people to worship the Bread and Wine as Body of Christ and Real Being of Christ, which lead to the Idolatry. Here we find Real Problem !
There is a lot of misunderstanding about John 6 too because its main meaning is Being Born Again in Jesus by Holy Spirit, even though Lord's Supper follows it as Lord's Supper is based on the sacrifice of Jesus and the salvation itself.
My concept of Real Presence is the Presence of Jesus at the scene of Lord's Supper as He is Omni-Present, and I believe that we are supposed to believe and regard Bread and Wine as His Flesh and Blood, not the change of the substance by any magic.
Here we find Real Problem with Transubstantiation and Real Presence.
When Jesus said: Mt 26:26-28
Take, eat; this is my body. 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Did Disciples eat the Flesh (cooked or uncooked?) and Blood indeed at the first Lord's Supper ?
1) Why don't they allow the test of the substance as Jesus told Thomas to check His body after resurrection?
2) Why RC doesn't allow the laymen/laywomen to drink the Blood? (only Flesh?)
3) I don't object to Real Presence. But if Real Presence means Bread and Wine becomes real substance of Jesus Christ, then it will cause people to worship the Bread and Wine as Body of Christ and Real Being of Christ, which lead to the Idolatry. Here we find Real Problem !
There is a lot of misunderstanding about John 6 too because its main meaning is Being Born Again in Jesus by Holy Spirit, even though Lord's Supper follows it as Lord's Supper is based on the sacrifice of Jesus and the salvation itself.
My concept of Real Presence is the Presence of Jesus at the scene of Lord's Supper as He is Omni-Present, and I believe that we are supposed to believe and regard Bread and Wine as His Flesh and Blood, not the change of the substance by any magic.
Here we find Real Problem with Transubstantiation and Real Presence.
You have repeatedly objected to Real Presence. Real Presence isn't some vague omnipresence thing, it is Christ offering His body and blood for the benefit of His people.
And if something is literally the body and blood of Christ is it really idolatry? Or are you willing to go on record as saying Worshiping Christ is idolatry?
Here in lies your problem, you like the Jews seek external signs concerning things which can only be understood through faith.
Thankfully Christ can give what He says He gives and isn't limited by your concepts.
1. My concept of Real Presence is the simple Real Presence at the scene of Lord's Supper. It doesn't mean that Jesus Christ came inside the Bread and Wine and those substances were changed.
2. I understand you partake the Lord Supper (every week?), at that time do you confirm that the material themselves of bread and wine are Flesh and Blood ? Did you notice that Bread and Wine were already converted to flesh and blood ?
3. Do you believe that the Disciples bit the flesh and drank the Blood when they were offered the First Lord's Supper?
4. Key question was when such conversion (transubstantiation) took place?
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup , ye do shew the Lord's death till he come ( 1 Cor 11:26)
Does Paul say that ye eat the flesh and blood ?
2. I understand you partake the Lord Supper (every week?), at that time do you confirm that the material themselves of bread and wine are Flesh and Blood ? Did you notice that Bread and Wine were already converted to flesh and blood ?
3. Do you believe that the Disciples bit the flesh and drank the Blood when they were offered the First Lord's Supper?
4. Key question was when such conversion (transubstantiation) took place?
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup , ye do shew the Lord's death till he come ( 1 Cor 11:26)
Does Paul say that ye eat the flesh and blood ?
How about including the whole thing instead of only what fits your preconceptions.
1 Corinthians 11:27-29 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
While we are at it this should be included
1 Corinthians 10:16 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
What in the world are you talking about? Who said anything about converting, particularly in refence to my beliefs? If you believe that this is my position then you are greatly mistaken and need to spend more time in study.
The Biblical belief is that the Bread and Wine are still there and Christ gives his body and blood physically in, with, and under (or in an unexplainable manner) the bread and wine.
I do not need it tested because I, unlike you, trust Jesus when He tells me something.
to everybody:
EATING HIS FLESH MEANS MAKING THE WORD THE CENTRAL PART OF YOUR LIFE
When Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again ... did Jesus mean he needed to climb back up into his mother's womb and physically be born once again?
I think that if you will do a study on John Chapter 6 you will find that when Jesus told us to eat His body and drink His blood, he meant not only that we ought to remember His sacrifice for us but also to make Him and His every word a part of our religious experience.
In other words you cannot keep the word of God apart from your life and expect to be saved.
Let's start with what Jesus said when the disciples were worried that He hadnt has any physical food for lunch:
Jn:4:34: Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
The "Meat" for Jesus was to do His Father's will.
Now look at Jeremiah and what he said:
Jer:15:16: Thy words were found, and I did EAT them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
Then look at the "Bread" or manna that came down from heaven and how once again, it is compared to living by every word of God:
Deut:8:3: And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Now read what Jesus SAID about the manna. He said that it represented HIM as the "Bread of Life".
John 6:
31: Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33: For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34: Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
48: I am that bread of life.
49: Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55: For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57: As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58: This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
35: And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Finally, read what Jesus said after He was done talking about eating His body and drinking His blood:
63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Once again, He is referring to putting THE WORD ... the Scriptures and all of their admonitions, into your life and making them a part of your Christian experience.
..if you dont do this, then your Christianity means nothing to God.
Claudia
EATING HIS FLESH MEANS MAKING THE WORD THE CENTRAL PART OF YOUR LIFE
When Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again ... did Jesus mean he needed to climb back up into his mother's womb and physically be born once again?
I think that if you will do a study on John Chapter 6 you will find that when Jesus told us to eat His body and drink His blood, he meant not only that we ought to remember His sacrifice for us but also to make Him and His every word a part of our religious experience.
In other words you cannot keep the word of God apart from your life and expect to be saved.
Let's start with what Jesus said when the disciples were worried that He hadnt has any physical food for lunch:
Jn:4:34: Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
The "Meat" for Jesus was to do His Father's will.
Now look at Jeremiah and what he said:
Jer:15:16: Thy words were found, and I did EAT them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
Then look at the "Bread" or manna that came down from heaven and how once again, it is compared to living by every word of God:
Deut:8:3: And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Now read what Jesus SAID about the manna. He said that it represented HIM as the "Bread of Life".
John 6:
31: Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33: For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34: Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
48: I am that bread of life.
49: Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55: For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57: As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58: This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
35: And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Finally, read what Jesus said after He was done talking about eating His body and drinking His blood:
63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Once again, He is referring to putting THE WORD ... the Scriptures and all of their admonitions, into your life and making them a part of your Christian experience.
..if you dont do this, then your Christianity means nothing to God.
Claudia
Interesting points but Scripture is not the only reason we consider the bread to become flesh and the wine to become blood. It is in the tradition of the church. Even Ireneaus who was given his office of Bishop by the Apostle John believed that the bread and wine was more than symbolic.
Here, I see you guys all sound different.
All of you are democratic and republic.
Chemnitz preached Con-substantiation, not Transubstantiation, when he said
The Biblical belief is that the Bread and Wine are still there and Christ gives his body and blood physically in, with, and under (or in an unexplainable manner) the bread and wine .
Claudia is rather similar to the most of Protestant belief. Now such memorial or simbolic interpretation is condemned by Cheminitz here.
Either Transubstantiation or Con-substantiation has one strength, emphasis of Real Presence which people may forget often.
But the claim that the substance is changed in a certain moment is not explicable.
Even Consubstantiation can cause a problem with a certain homage to the material. I was surprised to see Lutheran kiss on the plate of Cross when I visited there. I don't think such attitude has nothing to do with Consubstantiation. Still I want you think about my questions.
All of you are democratic and republic.
Chemnitz preached Con-substantiation, not Transubstantiation, when he said
The Biblical belief is that the Bread and Wine are still there and Christ gives his body and blood physically in, with, and under (or in an unexplainable manner) the bread and wine .
Claudia is rather similar to the most of Protestant belief. Now such memorial or simbolic interpretation is condemned by Cheminitz here.
Either Transubstantiation or Con-substantiation has one strength, emphasis of Real Presence which people may forget often.
But the claim that the substance is changed in a certain moment is not explicable.
Even Consubstantiation can cause a problem with a certain homage to the material. I was surprised to see Lutheran kiss on the plate of Cross when I visited there. I don't think such attitude has nothing to do with Consubstantiation. Still I want you think about my questions.
It is a good point to refute the logic of Transubstantiation by comparing Nicodemus case.
John 6 is talking about Being Born Again by believing. It doesn't talk about Eucharist.
If anyone is not born again spiritually, even though she or he may be partaking Eucharist thousand times, that person cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
Chemnitz
Does any one here take the bread and wine at the time of day Jesus instituted it ?
Some Christians also take the bread and wine once a year, early evening Nisan 14 (after night-fall on Nisan 13), as was Jesus' example -- as He instituted -- on the night He was betrayed.
Do others here at BB think this is wrong or okay to do ?
http://www.borntowin.net/aboutus.aspx -- Confession of Faith
WHEN: day and time of day.
Does any one here take the bread and wine at the time of day Jesus instituted it ?
Some Christians also take the bread and wine once a year, early evening Nisan 14 (after night-fall on Nisan 13), as was Jesus' example -- as He instituted -- on the night He was betrayed.
Do others here at BB think this is wrong or okay to do ?
http://www.borntowin.net/aboutus.aspx -- Confession of Faith
Q to Chemnitz,
1. Do Lutheran celebrate Lord's Supper every week ? or how often?
2. Do you distribute both Bread and Wine to the laymen and laywomen?
3. When do you believe the Con-substantiation started to take place, at the time of Pastor's prayer or from the time of baking at the bakery or from the wine celler?
1. Do Lutheran celebrate Lord's Supper every week ? or how often?
2. Do you distribute both Bread and Wine to the laymen and laywomen?
3. When do you believe the Con-substantiation started to take place, at the time of Pastor's prayer or from the time of baking at the bakery or from the wine celler?
1. Depends on the congregation, most celebrate every other week and fifth Sundays, others celebrate every week. We have two services and we celebrate every week alternating which service it is offered.
2. If you remember that really long post from Apology to the Augsburg Confession you would remember we celebrate with both kinds.
3. First, it is not consubstantiation and I would appreciate it if you quit using an inaccurate term. Second, we do not say a prayer only proclaim the Words of Christ concerning what He is offering. Third, we do not even try to place a timeline on the events of the Lord's Supper as He does not offer them. We trust that when we are eating and drinking we are receiving what Christ promised to give, namely His body and blood, and the forgiveness they bring.
2. If you remember that really long post from Apology to the Augsburg Confession you would remember we celebrate with both kinds.
3. First, it is not consubstantiation and I would appreciate it if you quit using an inaccurate term. Second, we do not say a prayer only proclaim the Words of Christ concerning what He is offering. Third, we do not even try to place a timeline on the events of the Lord's Supper as He does not offer them. We trust that when we are eating and drinking we are receiving what Christ promised to give, namely His body and blood, and the forgiveness they bring.
Chemnitz,Must people of your faith participate in this offering,How would you veiw one's spiritual condition,or there standing with God if they did'nt participate?What's your thought on how God might veiw someone who did'nt partake?Does your faith rest on the Augsburg Confession?