Trib begins

[Ed Edwards]

Revelation 7:9 (HCSB):

After this I looked, and there was a vast multitude from every nation,
tribe, people, and language, which no one could number,
standing before the throne and before the Lamb.
They were robed in white with palm branches in their hands.

I believe this to be the scene after the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
As it says, no man could number this multitude. Later in Revelation
the number 200 Million is mentioned. So the number here is very likely
MORE than 200 Million. Today there are 2,000 Million people called
"Christian" on this earth. When i suggest that 400 Milliion, that is
only 20%. Those who say 400,000 are 2/100s of 1%, only 1 in 5,000.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ed Edwards,

Theologian and mathematician too. I stand with Pastor Edwards and his understanding of Scripture. Two hundred million people is only a few thousand people less than our population in the United States. While American is arguably no longer a Christian nation, I will agree that there will be multiple millions more than 200,000,000 Christians who will rise[I Thess. 4:17] to be with Christ. [Revelation 7:9] This is the ' . . . great multitude, which no man can number, of all NATIONS, all KINDREDS, all PEOPLE, and all TONGUES, who will stand before the Lamb's throne.'

In verse thirteen, one of the Elders in Heaven asked the meaning of John's vision and the apostle said, 'These are they who came out of Great Tribulation {and through martyrdom} have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'

The Apostle John uses the article, 'the' (tays) not just tribulation but THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

Tribulation: {thilipsis} meaning: affliction, anguish, burdened, persecution, trouble, tribulation.

Great: {megalays} meaning: exceedingly great.

These are they who came out of THE EXCEEDINGLY GREAT TRIBULATION and not merely off again on again tribulation in none Christian nations in our times.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

These future events are not myths as liberal/non-Christian belief suggests to anyone who will believe this lie, which was birthed in the abyss of Hell.

You misunderstand. I didn't say that the Tribulation and the Second Coming are myths. Nor is the "rapture" per se a myth. What is a myth is the idea that there is going to be an evacuation of Christians from the earth before the Tribulation. The most worrisome aspect of that myth is it is going to leave the millions of (mainly American) Christians who buy (literally!) that nonsense unprepared to face the Antichrist.

 

[mioque]

Leave it to brother Ed to paint (and support with evidence) the hopefull scenario.

 

[Ray Berrian]

All Christians will ascend to be with Christ. [I Thess. 4:17] Not one Christian will be left here to deal with the antichrist. Those who have neglected or willfully refused to receive Christ as Savior will be the only victims here on earth to either obey or disobey the antichrist. When he takes the ability to either 'buy' or 'sell', that is the worst of human conditions. [Revelation 13:16-17] How do you buy food for your family? How does one sell his goods or services in order to support a family? Impossible!

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
All Christians will ascend to be with Christ. [I Thess. 4:17] Not one Christian will be left here to deal with the antichrist. Those who have neglected or willfully refused to receive Christ as Savior will be the only victims here on earth to either obey or disobey the antichrist.

So you have asserted. But the consensus of Christian teaching up until the 1800s is that Christians will have to face the Antichrist. Nobody ever imagined until the past couple of centuries that the church would be exempt from tribulation (including the Great Tribulation). In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is actually very clear about the fact that the Lord's Coming and our gathering to him (v.1) will not take place until after the son of perdition (the Antichrist) comes on the scene and declares himself to be God (v.4).

 

[Ray Berrian]

Doubting Thomas,

You said, 'So you have asserted. But the consensus of Christian teaching up until the
1800s is that Christians will have to face the Antichrist.'

'Before 1517 and even until this day, Catholicism believes that things will continue to the end of history and then a one----one time judgment day. Too many Protestants have adopted Catholic theology as their very own belief as to end time events. The Rapture truth was lost a few hundred years after the apostolate died. Things became confused. There have always been a faithful remnant who believed the truth of Christ taking His people home, before the unleashing of the Great Tribulation. That's a fact!'

You said, 'Nobody ever imagined until the past couple of centuries that the church would be exempt from tribulation (including the Great Tribulation).'

'Truth has a way of resurfacing for all to embrace. Some claim that Rev. J.N. Darby gathered together this truth of eschatological understanding. This is definitely possible. Dr. C.I. Scofield also developed this almost lost truth. Other men like rs. A.C. Gaebelein, William I. Pettingill, Wolvoord, Ryrie and J. Dwight Pentecost also have developed this most vital understanding of the truth.'

You said, 'In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is actually very clear about the fact that the Lord's Coming and our gathering to him (v.1) will not take place until after the son of perdition (the Antichrist) comes on the scene and declares himself to be God (v.4).'

'I am saying, 'In most of the passages in I & II Thessalonians the Apostle Paul is telling the church that Jesus will come for His own people and that they should not lose hope. For example, in I Thessalonians 4:16d Paul tells God's saved church that Jesus will appear in the clouds and that only 'the dead in Christ will rise . . . ' The wicked dead in their graves will not arise at this time, the time of the Rapture, until after the Millennial reign of Christ on earth for 1,000 years. The proof text for this statement is found in Revelation 20:5a]

To be totally factual, only after the Restrainer [II Thess. 2:7] is removed from the earth will the antichrist be revealed to a mostly, unsuspecting unredeemed human beings. If the church had to go though the Great Tribulation, Jesus could have scarcely said, at the close of your stated chapter, 'Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.' There would be absolutely no comfort if the church had to endure the Lord God's future judgments on and against a world full of sinners, because of their refusal to receive God's only begotten Son, our Savior. The Lord will never punish His people; we are the apple of His eye as stated in the Old Testament passage; in fact, we are the sons and daughters of God. [I John 3:2] Jesus appearing as noted in this 3:2 passage is the same as Christ coming for His people in I Corinthians chapter 15, the resurrection chapter of the Bible.

One of the reasons why the Rapture and Great Tribulation was not fully understood was because the apostolate did not have a printing press to write down a systematic theology. A scroll was hardly adequate for writing down all of the doctrines of the church. As you know, one of the reasons why Protestantism moved so quickly was because of God's providence and the printing press. Books and Bibles became more accessible to the laity, because of Gutenburg. (sp). We are truly a blessed people because if we want to study we can find the whole truth of what God is saying in His most precious Word, the Bible.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I stand with Pastor Edwards and his understanding of Scripture.

Thank you for the confidence. But
I'm a layperson. Try "Brother Edwards".

 

[BobRyan]

#1. All timeline prophecies are contiguous in scripture. The 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned by Daniel at the start of Daniel chapter 9 - are all contiguous years.

Gaps of undefined time inserted in the middle of a timeline - void the timeline.

#2. The 2300 days of Daniel 8 - are also contiguous - forming a single timeline.

#3. The 1260 days, and 3.5 years, and 42 months of Rev 11, 12, 13 are all referring to the same period of time. 1260 days = 42 months = 3.5 years.

#4. The First resurrection - is the resurrection of the righteous saints (Rev 20:4-5) predicted by Christ, hoped for by the church of the NT and described by Paul in 1Thess 4.

The tribulation is just as is described by Christ in Matt 24 - and His instruction to the church given in that chapter - is legit. We should hear it and benefit from it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
#1. All timeline prophecies are contiguous in scripture. The 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned by Daniel at the start of Daniel chapter 9 - are all contiguous years.

Gaps of undefined time inserted in the middle of a timeline - void the timeline.

I have more Biblical evidence
that dising God's design of History is
dangerours than you have that there is
some merit in your statement.

For example, Daniel's 70th week belongs
after the 69th IF ISRAEL ACCEPTS THEIR
MESSIAH. They did not, so the Gentile
Church age is inserted between Daniel's
69th and 70th week.

-------------------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

 

[BobRyan]

Ed - you are claiming timelines and gaps for cases where there is NO quantification of the timeline at all. Matt 24 being a perfect example. No number of weeks, days or years is given there. YEt you hope to use this as an example of a quantified timeline with a gap.

But the point remains as stated in the top of the post (with the added qualification of quantified timelines)..


#1. All (quantified) timeline prophecies are contiguous in scripture. The 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned by Daniel at the start of Daniel chapter 9 - are all contiguous years.

Gaps of undefined time inserted in the middle of a timeline - void the timeline.


In your quote of Daniel 9, you show that your own view "needs" to insert undefined gaps of time into the SINGLE 70 week timeline of Daniel 9. But you do not show that there IS justification for such gaps in a SINGLE timeline in all of scripture - since in fact - No timeline in scripture has undefined gaps AND to insert those gaps voids the use of a single timeline like "70 weeks" as an identifier for undefined timelines.

In Matt 24 there is NO quantified timeline given. But in Daniel 9 WE DO have one (the 70 years of Jeremiah) that starts the chapter and another one (the 70 weeks of Daniel) that ends it.

These are SINGLE quantified timelines. In no case of a quantified timeline - do you have gaps of undefined quantities of time inserted.

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Doubting Thomas: "What is a myth is the idea that there is going to be an evacuation of Christians from the earth before the Tribulation. The most worrisome aspect of that myth is it is going to leave the millions of (mainly American) Christians who buy (literally!) that nonsense unprepared to face the Antichrist. "

1. I disagree your myth. It is God's eternal
plan for the ages to have a pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection.
And what we think about it is not important.

Revelation 9:20-21 (HCSB):

The rest of the people, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands to stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which are not able to see, hear, or walk.
21 And they did not repent of their murders, their sorceries, their sexual immorality, or their thefts.

These seem to be the favorite sins of the Tribulation period Judgement.

Here, let me demolish another strawman posties like to
throw up: "We don't deserve the pretrib Rapture."

Absolutely. Those who receive the pretribulation rapture do NOT
deserve it. The pretribulation rapture will not be granted
to the group that deserves it most. The pretribulation rapture
will be given in God's appropriate time, according to God's Holy Will.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Doubting Thomas: "But the consensus of Christian teaching up
until the 1800s is that Christians will have to face the Antichrist."

1. Your proof data is?
The location of a Dr.'s disertation that
shows this would be nice.

2. If what you say is true,
that would contradict the NEw Testament

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

1. I disagree your myth. It is God's eternal
plan for the ages to have a pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection.
And what we think about it is not important.

Wrong. It is not God's eternal plan. It's mans off-base "interpretation" (rather, eigesis) of Scripture to support doctines never heard of before in the history of Christianity. The myth that Christians will be evacuated before the arrival of the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation was invented by men in the 1800s and is emphatically not God's eternal truth.

Displaying the same old imaginary timelines over and over again is not proof of pre-tribulationism. Reading the invented concept of the pre-trib rapture back into selected scriptures doesn't help your case either. I've seen it all before, having grown up believing unquestionably that the pre-trib scenario was Biblical teaching. When I decided to disregard the dispensational commentaries/books and look at the scriptures myself (and to delve into the history of the beliefs regarding the eschaton), I realized that the pre-trib rapture was a fabrication and therefore a false teaching. It is a false hope that will likely cause many to be unprepard for the great trial to come.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Doubting Thomas: "But the consensus of Christian teaching up
until the 1800s is that Christians will have to face the Antichrist."

1. Your proof data is?
The location of a Dr.'s disertation that
shows this would be nice.

If I have time tonight I'll provide plenty of Patristic support which refutes the notion of a pre-trib rapture. Conversely, perhaps you can show me documentation where anyone held to the pre-trib rapture before the 1800s. (Better yet, from the first five centuries of the Church.)

2. If what you say is true,
that would contradict the NEw Testament

Nope, it would just contradict your misinterpretation of the New Testament.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ed Edwards,

Have you noticed how we respond line for line in other people's posts, but they do not point out our alleged error-----line for line, their comment in response to our remarks?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Ed Edwards,

Have you noticed how we respond line for line in other people's posts, but they do not point out our alleged error-----line for line, their comment in response to our remarks?

That's because your "line for line responses" consist of nothing more than reading pre-trib rapture into the texts cited. Your "responses" have only demonstrated that pre-tribbers know how to do eigesis. Congrats. I've seen all those "responses" before, because that is how I was taught to view those Scripture passages growing up.

The fact is there are no Scriptures that state the Church will be raptured before the Tribulation, and the only way pre-tribbers can come to their conclusion is presuppose this invented concept and then force it back into the text.

 

[Ed Edwards]

The fact is there are no Scriptures that state
the Church will be raptured only after
the Tribulation, and the only way post-tribbers
can come to their conclusion is presuppose
this invented concept and then force it
back into the New Testament text and
the ECF = early church fathers, mouths.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Ed Edwards,

Have you noticed how we respond line for line in other people's posts, but they do not point out our alleged error-----line for line, their comment in response to our remarks?

Yep, i noticed that back in 1968
(after being a Christian for 16 years).
IN 1968 is when i made my first posted toastie

Have you noticed that I put an
evangelistical message above in one
of my canned posts? The one on page 2 about
the 5 resurrection. Yes, first one on page
two.

Did you notice there are two kinds of
posties? Here is how we see the future:

-------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as: <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: <-- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <-- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

 

[Ed Edwards]

Doubting Thomas: "I've seen it all before .,. "

How smug

Go ahead, admit
you've never seen the polysyndeton rational
for seperating Matt 24:31:44 from
Matt 24:29's "afther the tribulation of that day".

Last i checked, i'm the only one teaching that

Here is Ed's sumg

I made my first toast postie bac in 1968.
What was DT doing in 1968?

-----------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.