Doubting Thomas
Active Member
(GASP!) I'm going to have to agree with Ray and Ed on this one--that The Revelation of Jesus Christ to John was given to John (and thus written) while he was exiled on Patmos under the reign of Domitian. 
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Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
(GASP!) I'm going to have to agree with Ray and Ed on this one--that The Revelation of Jesus Christ to John was given to John (and thus written) while he was exiled on Patmos under the reign of Domitian.
I agree with the above as well.Ray Berrian
New Member
Jude,
'
Rev. 6.1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I
heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2 I
looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he
was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
"Conquest" has been a part of human history since 33 A.D. (and always,
frankly)
Ray: Your statement above is well taken. I believe, as you probably think also that John was having a vision because he says, 'Come and see' and in 9:17 speaks of a vision. In Revelation 19:11-21 the rider on the white horse is identified as 'He Who is called Faithful and True . . . ' a 'King of kings and Lord of lords.'
In Revelation 6:1 the interesting fact is that the horse had a rider but he as well as the other three horsemen remain unnamed to all readers of this book. The second curious fact is that a man of war always carries a weapon. This man will have a bow but no arrow. Dr. A.T. Robertson speaks of (Swete) as saying, 'It is tempting to identify him with the rider on the white horse in 19:11f., whose name is 'the word of God' Tempting,
'but the two writers have nothing in common beyond the white horse.' Vol. IV p. 340 of "Word Pictures in the New Testament."
While the Lord brings His providence into this world in this case also, I do not believe the rider is Jesus Christ. The opening of this first judgment, as in the opening of this first seal, God is introducing the antichrist who is also mentioned in 13:2. As this is related to future events, this man [13:18c] will be a world leader brought on stage by the Lord to bring about world peace, yet not without minimal, skirmishes of military fighting. This is the venue by which the antichrist will take world stage.'
The Word of God says, 'Rev. 6.3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its
rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.'
Ray: At the middle of the future Great Tribulation this antichrist will turn on the world's people-especially Israel and will bring on a world war. He was 'given a great sword.' The antichrist will be given a gigantic sword, meaning the greatest of authority.'
You said, 'War too, has been with us since the Rev. to St John!!! '
Ray: I believe this also; just like you said.
The Word says, 'Rev. 6.5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living
creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its
rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded
like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a
day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not
damage the oil and the wine!"
You said, 'Famine, pestilence, economic hardship. All here for 2,000 years.'
Ray: Your statement is true, but I believe this points beyond former famines to a world wide crisis because of the antichrist who will control the food and other things also, as duly noted in [13:17]
The Word says, 'Rev. 6.7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the
fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8 I looked, and there before me was a
pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close
behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by
sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
You said, 'Death has been around since Adam...'
Ray: Again you are right, but because these breaking of the Seal Judgments are on only sinners-this is a special, terrible providence brought about by the Lord our God.'
The Word says, 'Rev. 6.9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of
those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony
they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long,
Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth
and avenge our blood?" 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and
they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants
and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
Ray: Because of the martyrdom of future vast numbers of defiant Christian believers, [7:9] and [7:14] who will not take the mark of the beast, they in Heaven will be crying for Divine justice.'
You have said, 'Yes, the Saints in heaven are asking, "Lord, how much longer?" And then, in Chapter 6, St John sees that the End, the 2nd Coming, the Judgement of
God is now to begin...'
Ray: 'The latter part of Revelation chapter six predicts the Second Coming of Jesus Christ as He brings not only judgment but also the verdict of eternal Hell for those who have taken the mark of the beast.'
The Word says, 'Rev. 6.12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great
earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole
moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs
drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like
a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its
place.'
You said, 'They are terrified of Judgement.'
Ray: I agree fully.'
The Word says, 'Rev. 6.15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the
rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall
on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the
wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who
can stand?"'
Ray: 'But before this happens Christians who were ready at the Rapture will have been made secure from these unthinkable events. [I Thess. 4:17]
You said, 'These are all 'symbols' (such as Ezekiel's valley of dry bones or St Peter's
view of a sheet coming down from heaven) which are not 'real'. The
'symbols' were not 'real', but not are to be taken literally in what they
represent.'
Ray: The meaning was real to Peter; do not be bias against Gentiles. The 'dry bones' in Ezekiel are symbolic but point to the resurrection of national Israel becoming a viable nation and people who love democracy. In the Millennium all Jews will love and obey Jesus where He will sit enthroned in Jerusalem. [Zechariah 14:17]
You said, 'Revelation is not written chronologically. It is a series of pictures/visions all
saying the same thing.'
Ray: Most of the book named above is in chronological order. At times God skips over things like the return of Christ for His church as in chapter six of this book. He here speaks of Divine judgment against sinners in the Great Tribulation and moves to the Second Coming of Christ. He did not want to include the Rapture just before the opening of the first Seal Judgment.
You said, 'And look how this order matches Mt. 24! Mt. 25 has many 'warnings' regarding the End--and the Trumpets serve the same function.'
Ray: I agree. The Trumpet Judgments will be even more serious judgments that the Lord will bring to this future hour called the Great (unprecedented) Tribulation. {It is important to read Daniel 12:1c}
You said, 'Jesus, in Mt. 24/25, NEVER talks about a Millenial Kingdom (with a battle
with Satan 'unbound' at the end of the "1,000 years".), or a secret
rapture....interestingly, all the 'trumpets' of Revelation simply aren't in Mt 24
either. Hmmm...I wonder if perhaps they aren't LITERAL symbols???'
Ray: Was the Lord required to include all end times events in Matthew 24 through 25? He had Matthew write His truth and words as He saw fit and not according to our idea of what we might have written down in Scripture. The Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments are, as you say, symbols, but they are tokens of they way the Lord's providence will be at work as we move ever closer to the end of time.'
'
Rev. 6.1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I
heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2 I
looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he
was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
"Conquest" has been a part of human history since 33 A.D. (and always,
frankly)
Ray: Your statement above is well taken. I believe, as you probably think also that John was having a vision because he says, 'Come and see' and in 9:17 speaks of a vision. In Revelation 19:11-21 the rider on the white horse is identified as 'He Who is called Faithful and True . . . ' a 'King of kings and Lord of lords.'
In Revelation 6:1 the interesting fact is that the horse had a rider but he as well as the other three horsemen remain unnamed to all readers of this book. The second curious fact is that a man of war always carries a weapon. This man will have a bow but no arrow. Dr. A.T. Robertson speaks of (Swete) as saying, 'It is tempting to identify him with the rider on the white horse in 19:11f., whose name is 'the word of God' Tempting,
'but the two writers have nothing in common beyond the white horse.' Vol. IV p. 340 of "Word Pictures in the New Testament."
While the Lord brings His providence into this world in this case also, I do not believe the rider is Jesus Christ. The opening of this first judgment, as in the opening of this first seal, God is introducing the antichrist who is also mentioned in 13:2. As this is related to future events, this man [13:18c] will be a world leader brought on stage by the Lord to bring about world peace, yet not without minimal, skirmishes of military fighting. This is the venue by which the antichrist will take world stage.'
The Word of God says, 'Rev. 6.3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its
rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.'
Ray: At the middle of the future Great Tribulation this antichrist will turn on the world's people-especially Israel and will bring on a world war. He was 'given a great sword.' The antichrist will be given a gigantic sword, meaning the greatest of authority.'
You said, 'War too, has been with us since the Rev. to St John!!! '
Ray: I believe this also; just like you said.
The Word says, 'Rev. 6.5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living
creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its
rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded
like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a
day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not
damage the oil and the wine!"
You said, 'Famine, pestilence, economic hardship. All here for 2,000 years.'
Ray: Your statement is true, but I believe this points beyond former famines to a world wide crisis because of the antichrist who will control the food and other things also, as duly noted in [13:17]
The Word says, 'Rev. 6.7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the
fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8 I looked, and there before me was a
pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close
behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by
sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
You said, 'Death has been around since Adam...'
Ray: Again you are right, but because these breaking of the Seal Judgments are on only sinners-this is a special, terrible providence brought about by the Lord our God.'
The Word says, 'Rev. 6.9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of
those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony
they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long,
Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth
and avenge our blood?" 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and
they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants
and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
Ray: Because of the martyrdom of future vast numbers of defiant Christian believers, [7:9] and [7:14] who will not take the mark of the beast, they in Heaven will be crying for Divine justice.'
You have said, 'Yes, the Saints in heaven are asking, "Lord, how much longer?" And then, in Chapter 6, St John sees that the End, the 2nd Coming, the Judgement of
God is now to begin...'
Ray: 'The latter part of Revelation chapter six predicts the Second Coming of Jesus Christ as He brings not only judgment but also the verdict of eternal Hell for those who have taken the mark of the beast.'
The Word says, 'Rev. 6.12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great
earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole
moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs
drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like
a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its
place.'
You said, 'They are terrified of Judgement.'
Ray: I agree fully.'
The Word says, 'Rev. 6.15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the
rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall
on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the
wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who
can stand?"'
Ray: 'But before this happens Christians who were ready at the Rapture will have been made secure from these unthinkable events. [I Thess. 4:17]
You said, 'These are all 'symbols' (such as Ezekiel's valley of dry bones or St Peter's
view of a sheet coming down from heaven) which are not 'real'. The
'symbols' were not 'real', but not are to be taken literally in what they
represent.'
Ray: The meaning was real to Peter; do not be bias against Gentiles. The 'dry bones' in Ezekiel are symbolic but point to the resurrection of national Israel becoming a viable nation and people who love democracy. In the Millennium all Jews will love and obey Jesus where He will sit enthroned in Jerusalem. [Zechariah 14:17]
You said, 'Revelation is not written chronologically. It is a series of pictures/visions all
saying the same thing.'
Ray: Most of the book named above is in chronological order. At times God skips over things like the return of Christ for His church as in chapter six of this book. He here speaks of Divine judgment against sinners in the Great Tribulation and moves to the Second Coming of Christ. He did not want to include the Rapture just before the opening of the first Seal Judgment.
You said, 'And look how this order matches Mt. 24! Mt. 25 has many 'warnings' regarding the End--and the Trumpets serve the same function.'
Ray: I agree. The Trumpet Judgments will be even more serious judgments that the Lord will bring to this future hour called the Great (unprecedented) Tribulation. {It is important to read Daniel 12:1c}
You said, 'Jesus, in Mt. 24/25, NEVER talks about a Millenial Kingdom (with a battle
with Satan 'unbound' at the end of the "1,000 years".), or a secret
rapture....interestingly, all the 'trumpets' of Revelation simply aren't in Mt 24
either. Hmmm...I wonder if perhaps they aren't LITERAL symbols???'
Ray: Was the Lord required to include all end times events in Matthew 24 through 25? He had Matthew write His truth and words as He saw fit and not according to our idea of what we might have written down in Scripture. The Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments are, as you say, symbols, but they are tokens of they way the Lord's providence will be at work as we move ever closer to the end of time.'
Ray Berrian
New Member
These are some of the other men who believe in the future pre-Tribulation rapture and Millenimum of Christ on the earch in Jerusalem. [Zechariah 14:17]
Drs. John Ankerberg, Dave Breeze, David Jeremiah, Robert Lightner and Grant R. Jeffrey who wrote "Prince of Darkness" Bantam Books. I believe Dr. Jeffrey is from Canada. Also, Mr. Dave Hunt who is the author of "What Love Is This?" Loyal Publishing. These are the people that I am acquainted with by way of their prominence.
Drs. John Ankerberg, Dave Breeze, David Jeremiah, Robert Lightner and Grant R. Jeffrey who wrote "Prince of Darkness" Bantam Books. I believe Dr. Jeffrey is from Canada. Also, Mr. Dave Hunt who is the author of "What Love Is This?" Loyal Publishing. These are the people that I am acquainted with by way of their prominence.
Just because Christ addressed seven doesn't mean those were the only seven. Someone once pointed out that the seven churches lied on a mail route, so Christ chose these congregations as representatives of the different strengths and weaknesses that would be in the church for all time.
This whole idea that the Jews were totally wiped out is just not true from any historical source. There were still Jews; Christian writers such as Justin and Tertullian debated with them; they still had their synagogues (though they were probably more undergound and hidden because of the persecution), and they still said that they were the true heirs, not Christians, and would put any Christians out of their synagogues. That is what those two references to persecution by Jews are reflecting. (and that was what he was getting at, Ray, so you can't say it was Roman persecution).
The 5+1+1 only works if you only include the Caesars. But how do you know that of all of the Roman Emperors before and after them, that only those bearing this name are the heads of the Beast?
If it does happen to refer to the Caesars, then remember, Bible typology is in types, and John may have been taking something that would be familiar to the readers, from having recently happened, to prophesy another antitypical fulfillment. John, having just mentioned its ascendance from the bottomless pit, therefore describes its state at that time: five resurrections of the empire having fallen (which I believe were Justinian—Napoleon), one is (which is the more close to "modern" rise of the Nazi-Fascist reich), and the yet one to come (the final "Antichrist")
I believe you are reading into the text. Where does it say that this is the antichrist? It doesn't. The 1st century reader would have seen something akin to the Parthian warrior, who brought terror to the minds of the Romans and all in the 'Middle East'; famous for their bows/archery skills, etc. Again, I believe St John is given to understand (same order as Mt 24)that conquest will be in the nature of fallen man and human history til the end. My critique of your view of the other horses -being a representation of the Antichrist's work- would be the same. Yet, if there is an 'Antichrist' at the end of human history -and I suspect there will be- then he will no doubt visit horrible things upon this world.
I don't know where you get your information. Nero did not persecute Christians beyond the area of Rome. With Domitian's reign came 'worldwide' persecution of Christians. HE was the one who demanded to be called "Lord and God". Sorry, but Revelation came to St John during the 'reign' of Domitian.
[ June 12, 2004, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Jude ]
I find that the 'problem' with your view is the same 'problem' I have with those who promote 'faith alone'. With the former, again, Jesus never speaks of a 'Millenial Kingdom' or a 'secret Rapture'. With the latter, one would be hard-pressed to see Jesus promoting 'faith alone'.
In both cases, don't you think that the words of Jesus should take priority over all others, even St Paul? Shouldn't His words be the 'control' for our views of the Eschaton/salvation? I think so. My problem, Ray, with your view is that you view the Revelation text with premillenial lenses, instead of just looking at the text with objectivity. You say that the 'first horse, second horse... is the antichrist', and yet the text doesn't say that at all. You dismiss the notion that Revelation is not chronological, because to do so would through your premillenial scenario out the window. I remain convinced of the promise of the Angel in Acts 1, that Christ will come again. I remain unconvinced of premillenialism.
eschatologist
New Member
Once again I say, if you read your history you will see that Nero did launch a persecution of christians. It was the christians to whom he blamed for the burning of Rome! You can read accounts of Nero burning christians as tourches for light during his twisted parties. And have you forgotten that it was Nero who had Peter and Paul killed! If you desire to look through the glass dimly in an effort to, at all costs, find support for the Domitian theory, then not even the Lord Jesus Christ could persuade you differently.
But my point is that the main theme of the book of Revelation is not about the persecutions of christians. It is about the triumph of christians. It is also about God's judgement on an unbelieving wicked nation. What nation you ask? That would be the nation of Isreal.
This judgement was going to happen soon, whenever you might believe the book was written. The Lord said "the time is near" and "I am coming soon." I did not invent these words. The Lord carved them out of His truthful heart to warn us and to give us comfort. It is not I who painstakenly tries to invent ways define His meanings. I believe the Lord said what He meant and meant what He said. You may want to re-define Him, but I dare not!
But my point is that the main theme of the book of Revelation is not about the persecutions of christians. It is about the triumph of christians. It is also about God's judgement on an unbelieving wicked nation. What nation you ask? That would be the nation of Isreal.
This judgement was going to happen soon, whenever you might believe the book was written. The Lord said "the time is near" and "I am coming soon." I did not invent these words. The Lord carved them out of His truthful heart to warn us and to give us comfort. It is not I who painstakenly tries to invent ways define His meanings. I believe the Lord said what He meant and meant what He said. You may want to re-define Him, but I dare not!
eschatologist
New Member
Ed Edwards
With all due respect sir there is absolutely nothing to imply that measuring means rebuilding. John said here that by measuring you are sealing or protecting a portion, not rebuilding! The portion excluded was given over to destruction, in this case by the Roman armies.
With all due respect sir there is absolutely nothing to imply that measuring means rebuilding. John said here that by measuring you are sealing or protecting a portion, not rebuilding! The portion excluded was given over to destruction, in this case by the Roman armies.
Ray Berrian
New Member
'I was always under the true impression that not only Jesus' words but those of the Apostolate had the same force coming from Almighty God Himself. Each writer may have used his own style but the truth was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit so there is absolutely no error in His Word. [II Timothy 3:16-17]
We should be under the control of His truth coming from the Book of Revelation.
You seem to think that only your objectivity is right while worlds of people disagree with your Roman Catholic, hand me down, 'kingdom now view.' It sure has taken centuries to rid some of you men of Romanism's philosophy and some still like to drink at the rivers edge with them.
Revelation 20 speaks of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, six times in seven verses. It must have been an important truth offered by the Lord for Him to repeat it this many times. Some people refuse to acknowledge the verity of His truth.
We should be under the control of His truth coming from the Book of Revelation.
You seem to think that only your objectivity is right while worlds of people disagree with your Roman Catholic, hand me down, 'kingdom now view.' It sure has taken centuries to rid some of you men of Romanism's philosophy and some still like to drink at the rivers edge with them.
Revelation 20 speaks of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, six times in seven verses. It must have been an important truth offered by the Lord for Him to repeat it this many times. Some people refuse to acknowledge the verity of His truth.
Ray Berrian
New Member
I remember that I too said it is foolish idea that John measured the Temple so that 37 years after Jesus' ascension, it was destroyed. Jesus would not have asked for such an absurd venture.
But, it does make sense that John measure the future Great Tribulation Temple, so that when it comes to pass, sinners will recognize it as being the one, according to Biblical dimensions and truth.
But, it does make sense that John measure the future Great Tribulation Temple, so that when it comes to pass, sinners will recognize it as being the one, according to Biblical dimensions and truth.
Of course Paul's/John's/Peter's writings are fully-inspired. That's NOT my point! The point is that Jesus' words should be given the final/fullest authority, that His teachings are the 'filter' through which we view all other Scripture.
The issue is NOT whether the Roman Catholic Church holds this view (basically most Orthodox and many Anglicans, and many other conservative Protestants do too), the issue is whether it is right or not. You are not so biased toward Rome that you would say that everything they teach/hold is in error are you?
If Revelation 20's thousand years, is to be interpreted the way you do, how curious that the Lord Jesus NEVER referred to it in the Gospels. 2nd, the '1000 Years' are simply a SYMBOL of the Church Age. When Jesus returns, BAM!, that's it!
Ray Berrian
New Member
Jude,
You said, '
The issue is NOT whether the Roman Catholic Church holds this view
(basically most Orthodox and many Anglicans, and many other conservative
Protestants do too), the issue is whether it is right or not. You are not so
biased toward Rome that you would say that everything they teach/hold is
in error are you?'
Ray: No the R.C. church does get some things correct. They believe in the deity of Christ and the atonement and the Second Coming of Christ for example.
You said, 'If Revelation 20's thousand years, is to be interpreted the way you do, how
curious that the Lord Jesus NEVER referred to it in the Gospels.'
Ray: I have not studied line by line the Gospels in relation to the earthly reign of Christ on the earth. I will go on record as saying, that Matthew 5:1-12 will be the Magna Charta of His future earthly Kingdom. It will be the guide as to how new believers will try to guide their lives, when Jesus will be sitting on the throne in Jerusalem.
You said, '2nd, the 1000 Years' are simply a SYMBOL of the Church Age. When Jesus returns, BAM!, that's it!'
Ray: Adam and Eve are representatives of us all, symbolically, and yet they really were individual male and female persons.
When Jesus returns there will be much prophecy as to the 'binding of Satan' and so on plus the setting up of the Kingly reign of Christ on the earth. Study Ezekiel chapters 38-48. Highlight the terms, 'Temple, the inner Temple, Sanctuary, the House, the House of the Lord, and the Sanctuary of the Lord.' You will come up with a large number, indeed. And then try to wrench your way out of denying that Christ will be resident on earth in His Temple. If you ever meet Messianic Christians they will explain the correct eschatological view of Scripture, to you kingdom only right now, kinds of people. The kingdom of God started with Adam and Eve and is a term used for all dispensations. This, however, is presently--the Church Age.
Zechariah chapter fourteen will be in vogue after the rapture and Christ will be the Administer over His theocratic Kingdom on this earth. His throne will be in Jerusalem and families from all around the earth will come to His feet to worship and adore Him.' [vss. 16 & 17]
You said, '
The issue is NOT whether the Roman Catholic Church holds this view
(basically most Orthodox and many Anglicans, and many other conservative
Protestants do too), the issue is whether it is right or not. You are not so
biased toward Rome that you would say that everything they teach/hold is
in error are you?'
Ray: No the R.C. church does get some things correct. They believe in the deity of Christ and the atonement and the Second Coming of Christ for example.
You said, 'If Revelation 20's thousand years, is to be interpreted the way you do, how
curious that the Lord Jesus NEVER referred to it in the Gospels.'
Ray: I have not studied line by line the Gospels in relation to the earthly reign of Christ on the earth. I will go on record as saying, that Matthew 5:1-12 will be the Magna Charta of His future earthly Kingdom. It will be the guide as to how new believers will try to guide their lives, when Jesus will be sitting on the throne in Jerusalem.
You said, '2nd, the 1000 Years' are simply a SYMBOL of the Church Age. When Jesus returns, BAM!, that's it!'
Ray: Adam and Eve are representatives of us all, symbolically, and yet they really were individual male and female persons.
When Jesus returns there will be much prophecy as to the 'binding of Satan' and so on plus the setting up of the Kingly reign of Christ on the earth. Study Ezekiel chapters 38-48. Highlight the terms, 'Temple, the inner Temple, Sanctuary, the House, the House of the Lord, and the Sanctuary of the Lord.' You will come up with a large number, indeed. And then try to wrench your way out of denying that Christ will be resident on earth in His Temple. If you ever meet Messianic Christians they will explain the correct eschatological view of Scripture, to you kingdom only right now, kinds of people. The kingdom of God started with Adam and Eve and is a term used for all dispensations. This, however, is presently--the Church Age.
Zechariah chapter fourteen will be in vogue after the rapture and Christ will be the Administer over His theocratic Kingdom on this earth. His throne will be in Jerusalem and families from all around the earth will come to His feet to worship and adore Him.' [vss. 16 & 17]
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Jude: "If Revelation 20's thousand years, is to be interpreted the way you do, how curious that the Lord Jesus NEVER referred to it in the Gospels."
Jude, if Revelation 20's thousand years, is to be interpreted the way you do, how curious that the Lord Jesus NEVER referred to it in the Gospels.
From my study of the Holy Bible
i find that Jesus has three Kingdoms
1. the kingdom within you now
2. the eternal kingdom
3. the physical literal Millinnial Kingdom.
The kingdoms are one. The wise Christian
knows when to one and when to two.
Jude, if Revelation 20's thousand years, is to be interpreted the way you do, how curious that the Lord Jesus NEVER referred to it in the Gospels.
From my study of the Holy Bible
i find that Jesus has three Kingdoms
1. the kingdom within you now
2. the eternal kingdom
3. the physical literal Millinnial Kingdom.
The kingdoms are one. The wise Christian
knows when to one and when to two.
But He did. Read Mt.24.30-31 He says NOTHING about a Millenial Kingdom--He NEVER mentions a 1000 Kingdom. He does mention a ONE TIME Coming (not 2, as in the Premillenial scenario), and then the 'End'. Therefore, the 1000 year Kingdom MUST be symbolic, which of course, it is.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Should you have said
(speaking of Jesus in Matthew 24): "He
does mention a ONE TIME Coming
(not 2, as in the Pretribulation scenario), ... "
The Pretribulation rapture scenario
is a part of Premillennial teaching
that teaches two seperate "comings"
(alternately the two seperate events
occur at the beginning and at the end
of a 7-year Day of the Lord).
Alaso a part of the Premillennial teaching
(well, another branch) is the
Postribulation Rapture ONLY theory.
This branch of Premillinnial Second
Advent of Jesus teaches there is no
pretrib rapture, just a post tribulation
rapture.
Premillinnial teaching basicly says
that some day Jesus will return again
as He promised, destroy the Antichrist
and set up a physical Millinnial* Kingdom.
* Nobody is going to get bent out of
shape if they find out the 1,000 year
kingdom of Christ lasts 10,000 years.
Here is a comparison of these various
schemas of the future. I only vouch
for the pretribulation, premillinnial
being correct (the others are my understanding
of what they teach, but in my terms, this
can usually lead to confusion and errors,
but here we go anyway).
---------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:
0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
Postrib pre-mill outline:
0. church age continues <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
Postrib a-mill outline:
0. church age continues - is the same as: <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: <-- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <-- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth
Peterist a-mill outline:
0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection <done happened
2. Tribulation time <-- or maybe you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event <done happend
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <done happened
5. new heaven & new earth <-- or maybe you are here
Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
Ed recommends:
get Rapture Ready!
Stay Rapture Ready!
------------------------------
And here is three Bible places from which
I get my timeline:
------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:
0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):
0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15
1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44
2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)
Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)
The timeline according to Revelation:
0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5
The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:
0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)
1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away
2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8
Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)
Lord Bacon said: "So it is in contemplation: if a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties."
My brother Ray said: Do Preterists have any idea of the condition of the earth after stars crash into our planet?'
Another question: If just one star, our sun, fell to within 1,000,000 miles from our planet would there be anything left?
My brother Ed said. Revelation 11:1-2 (HCSB):
Then I was given a measuring reed like a rod, with these words:"Go and measure God's sanctuary and the altar, and count those who worship there. 2 But exclude the courtyard outside the
sanctuary. Don't measure it, because it is given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.
Please also note that the "exclude the courtyard outside" meaning NOT to measure it, has a present day application (isn't it interesting how John saw stuff that didn't exist until almost 600 years after his time ??? ). The Dome of the Rock, it could continue to exist in the outer courtyard with a temple in place.
It is my opinion that the body of believers is the only temple that will be erected, and that it will be complete only when He returns. Of what use is a physical temple knowing what He had to say about it?
Rev. 21:22. I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
If I am not mistaken, God has dwelled (tabernacled) with man:
1. In the Garden.
2. In the Tabernacle in the Wilderness.
3. In the Tabernacle of David.
4. In the Temple of Solomon
5. In the Person of Jesus
6. In the Church
7. The temple of Rev 12:22
He does have a thing about numbers and seven is complete.
Would He accept the temple worship of Jews again sacrificing animals?
I don't know diddly about Preterists, Post Tribs, Pre Tribs, Pre and Post millennium either, and with a hope of not offending, I really don't care. There are a list of honest, brilliant, and loving men and women who hold to all views mentioned and can prove their stand from the Scriptures. I had my mind made up within the first few years of becoming a follower of Christ, that there would be a rapture before the Great Trib. and etc. I have known Jesus for 30 years, and was aware early on that I was to serve the Body of Christ. I ignored that until a few years ago, when discipline came ("it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God") Nevertheless that experience changed my attitude and I learned that in the Scriptures I find the highest means of spiritual educational and development. It is Jesus that we must know intimately and the Scriptures we must use to that end, to know Him only and not theory, doctrine and dogma. The Bible is the most profound, useful and practical Book the world has ever known. It is God's pleasure to give to us the mysteries of the Kingdom, but it is ours also to totally depend on His light. All cannot be right!
Surely, God has hidden things from the wise and given insight to babes just as he did when Peter and John were before the court. They were amazed at their learning, knowing their background. Peter and John's source of knowledge was Jesus Himself.
I realize that this may seem to you as ramblings, but I have spent some time going over all the past posts and more than likely overstepped the bounds.
But, you are all brothers, and I know you will forgive.
My brother Ray said: Do Preterists have any idea of the condition of the earth after stars crash into our planet?'
Another question: If just one star, our sun, fell to within 1,000,000 miles from our planet would there be anything left?
My brother Ed said. Revelation 11:1-2 (HCSB):
Then I was given a measuring reed like a rod, with these words:"Go and measure God's sanctuary and the altar, and count those who worship there. 2 But exclude the courtyard outside the
sanctuary. Don't measure it, because it is given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.
Please also note that the "exclude the courtyard outside" meaning NOT to measure it, has a present day application (isn't it interesting how John saw stuff that didn't exist until almost 600 years after his time ??? ). The Dome of the Rock, it could continue to exist in the outer courtyard with a temple in place.
It is my opinion that the body of believers is the only temple that will be erected, and that it will be complete only when He returns. Of what use is a physical temple knowing what He had to say about it?
Rev. 21:22. I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
If I am not mistaken, God has dwelled (tabernacled) with man:
1. In the Garden.
2. In the Tabernacle in the Wilderness.
3. In the Tabernacle of David.
4. In the Temple of Solomon
5. In the Person of Jesus
6. In the Church
7. The temple of Rev 12:22
He does have a thing about numbers and seven is complete.
Would He accept the temple worship of Jews again sacrificing animals?
I don't know diddly about Preterists, Post Tribs, Pre Tribs, Pre and Post millennium either, and with a hope of not offending, I really don't care. There are a list of honest, brilliant, and loving men and women who hold to all views mentioned and can prove their stand from the Scriptures. I had my mind made up within the first few years of becoming a follower of Christ, that there would be a rapture before the Great Trib. and etc. I have known Jesus for 30 years, and was aware early on that I was to serve the Body of Christ. I ignored that until a few years ago, when discipline came ("it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God") Nevertheless that experience changed my attitude and I learned that in the Scriptures I find the highest means of spiritual educational and development. It is Jesus that we must know intimately and the Scriptures we must use to that end, to know Him only and not theory, doctrine and dogma. The Bible is the most profound, useful and practical Book the world has ever known. It is God's pleasure to give to us the mysteries of the Kingdom, but it is ours also to totally depend on His light. All cannot be right!
Surely, God has hidden things from the wise and given insight to babes just as he did when Peter and John were before the court. They were amazed at their learning, knowing their background. Peter and John's source of knowledge was Jesus Himself.
I realize that this may seem to you as ramblings, but I have spent some time going over all the past posts and more than likely overstepped the bounds.
But, you are all brothers, and I know you will forgive.
Ray Berrian
New Member
shewfly,
You said, 'Another question: If just one star, our sun, fell to within 1,000,000 miles
from our planet would there be anything left?'
I am not a scientist but I have been told that the sun would burn up everything we can see including ourselves.'
My brother Ed said. Revelation 11:1-2 (HCSB):
Then I was given a measuring reed like a rod, with these words:"Go and
measure God's sanctuary and the altar, and count those who worship there.
2 But exclude the courtyard outside the
sanctuary. Don't measure it, because it is given to the nations, and they will
trample the holy city for 42 months.'
Ray: That's right, the last three and one half years of the future Great Tribulation will be partly a war around the city of Jerusalem, and then the Lord will appear at His Second Coming to destroy the enemies of Christians and His national people, Israel. 42 monthis is 3 ½ years.'
Someone said, 'Please also note that the "exclude the courtyard outside" meaning NOT to
measure it, has a present day application (isn't it interesting how John saw
stuff that didn't exist until almost 600 years after his time ??? ).
Ray: I thought John the Apostle lived about 2,000 years ago..
The Dome of the Rock, it could continue to exist in the outer courtyard with a temple in
place.'
Ray: Some people think there is still room for a literal Temple to be built near the Dome of the Rock.
'It is my opinion that the body of believers is the only temple that will be
erected, and that it will be complete only when He returns. Of what use is a
physical temple knowing what He had to say about it?
Rev. 21:22. I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the
Lamb are its temple.
If I am not mistaken, God has dwelled (tabernacled) with man:
1. In the Garden.
2. In the Tabernacle in the Wilderness.
3. In the Tabernacle of David.
4. In the Temple of Solomon
5. In the Person of Jesus
6. In the Church
7. The temple of Rev 12:22'
Ray: While we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, [I Cor. 3:16] this does not detract from the fact that there will be a Great Tribulation Temple built, and the antichrist will sit on that throne. [II Thess. 2:3-4]'
'Would He accept the temple worship of Jews again sacrificing animals?'
Ray: Ezekiel chapters 40-48 speaks to the matter of the Temple and sacrifice, but this Temple will be the Millennial Temple that He will build during the reign of Christ on the earth. The sacrifices will be a memorial as to the way the O.T. system was run and will provide for us the greater picture of His once for all sacrifice for our sins. This will be similar to how we observe the Holy Communion/Eucharist. We look back in time and follow the example of His Last Supper with the apostles.'
'I have known Jesus for 30 years, and was aware early on that I was to serve the Body of
Christ. I ignored that until a few years ago, when discipline came ("it is a
fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God") Nevertheless that
experience changed my attitude and I learned that in the Scriptures I find the
highest means of spiritual educational and development. It is Jesus that we
must know intimately and the Scriptures we must use to that end, to know
Him only and not theory, doctrine and dogma. The Bible is the most
profound, useful and practical Book the world has ever known. It is God's
pleasure to give to us the mysteries of the Kingdom, but it is ours also to
totally depend on His light. All cannot be right!
Surely, God has hidden things from the wise and given insight to babes just
as he did when Peter and John were before the court. They were amazed at
their learning, knowing their background. Peter and John's source of
knowledge was Jesus Himself.
I realize that this may seem to you as ramblings, but I have spent some
time going over all the past posts and more than likely overstepped the
bounds.
But, you are all brothers, and I know you will forgive.
Ray: I'm more than satisfied that you know the Lord and that He purified your life and has drawn you closer to Himself. That's great!'
You said, 'Another question: If just one star, our sun, fell to within 1,000,000 miles
from our planet would there be anything left?'
I am not a scientist but I have been told that the sun would burn up everything we can see including ourselves.'
My brother Ed said. Revelation 11:1-2 (HCSB):
Then I was given a measuring reed like a rod, with these words:"Go and
measure God's sanctuary and the altar, and count those who worship there.
2 But exclude the courtyard outside the
sanctuary. Don't measure it, because it is given to the nations, and they will
trample the holy city for 42 months.'
Ray: That's right, the last three and one half years of the future Great Tribulation will be partly a war around the city of Jerusalem, and then the Lord will appear at His Second Coming to destroy the enemies of Christians and His national people, Israel. 42 monthis is 3 ½ years.'
Someone said, 'Please also note that the "exclude the courtyard outside" meaning NOT to
measure it, has a present day application (isn't it interesting how John saw
stuff that didn't exist until almost 600 years after his time ??? ).
Ray: I thought John the Apostle lived about 2,000 years ago..
The Dome of the Rock, it could continue to exist in the outer courtyard with a temple in
place.'
Ray: Some people think there is still room for a literal Temple to be built near the Dome of the Rock.
'It is my opinion that the body of believers is the only temple that will be
erected, and that it will be complete only when He returns. Of what use is a
physical temple knowing what He had to say about it?
Rev. 21:22. I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the
Lamb are its temple.
If I am not mistaken, God has dwelled (tabernacled) with man:
1. In the Garden.
2. In the Tabernacle in the Wilderness.
3. In the Tabernacle of David.
4. In the Temple of Solomon
5. In the Person of Jesus
6. In the Church
7. The temple of Rev 12:22'
Ray: While we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, [I Cor. 3:16] this does not detract from the fact that there will be a Great Tribulation Temple built, and the antichrist will sit on that throne. [II Thess. 2:3-4]'
'Would He accept the temple worship of Jews again sacrificing animals?'
Ray: Ezekiel chapters 40-48 speaks to the matter of the Temple and sacrifice, but this Temple will be the Millennial Temple that He will build during the reign of Christ on the earth. The sacrifices will be a memorial as to the way the O.T. system was run and will provide for us the greater picture of His once for all sacrifice for our sins. This will be similar to how we observe the Holy Communion/Eucharist. We look back in time and follow the example of His Last Supper with the apostles.'
'I have known Jesus for 30 years, and was aware early on that I was to serve the Body of
Christ. I ignored that until a few years ago, when discipline came ("it is a
fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God") Nevertheless that
experience changed my attitude and I learned that in the Scriptures I find the
highest means of spiritual educational and development. It is Jesus that we
must know intimately and the Scriptures we must use to that end, to know
Him only and not theory, doctrine and dogma. The Bible is the most
profound, useful and practical Book the world has ever known. It is God's
pleasure to give to us the mysteries of the Kingdom, but it is ours also to
totally depend on His light. All cannot be right!
Surely, God has hidden things from the wise and given insight to babes just
as he did when Peter and John were before the court. They were amazed at
their learning, knowing their background. Peter and John's source of
knowledge was Jesus Himself.
I realize that this may seem to you as ramblings, but I have spent some
time going over all the past posts and more than likely overstepped the
bounds.
But, you are all brothers, and I know you will forgive.
Ray: I'm more than satisfied that you know the Lord and that He purified your life and has drawn you closer to Himself. That's great!'