Trinity or no trinity?

Helen,
You just couldn't do it could you? I knew you weren't done!

According to the KJV text, in context, this verse is not about Jesus. I don't know which version you are using but the word 'God' is not even in the original text. This is what the KJV says:

14. That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15. Which in his times he [Jesus] shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of Lords;
16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

It is in the time of JESUS that JESUS will show WHO the Blessed and ONLY Potentate, King of Kings and Lord of Lords is. JESUS will show who it is that is the only one with immortality, who dwells in light that no MAN can approach, and NO MAN has seen NOR CAN see. THAT can't be Jesus. He has been seen in human form, in Angelic form, in the form of 'Light', in the form of a burning bush. Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God, and NNE has seen God at anytime. These verses are a prophecy of the second coming, in the which Jesus will SHOW us who God is. He came to earth 'vieled' in humanity and when He comes back He will come in ALL His Father's Glory. THEN Jesus will have shown us WHO God is. And the reason we will be ABLE to see Him is because we will be like Him, when we see Him as He is. So the 'Light' that was once unapproachable, will be approachable when we are perfected.

Get it?

I love what this verse confirms. Why is Jesus the Lord of lords and King of kings? Do you think that God (The Father) and Jesus can BOTH be the King of kings and Lord of lords, or can there only be ONE supreme King and Lord? If you answered 'only One' then we will agree. This verse tells ME that TRULY God DID give all power to Jesus, just as He claimed that He did.
Matt 28:18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
The power was ONCE God's, and He GAVE IT to Jesus. God gave Jesus the preeminence over all things, including judgment. God was the supreme Judge, only Potentate, and all power was His, throughout the Old Testament. But there was a CHANGE! When Jesus went to the Father, and then returned to the Apostles before His ascention, God GAVE HIM all Power. And now it is said, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."(Jn5:22-24) That is because He gave that job to His Son!

There are also verses prophecying the return of Power back to God, after Jesus judges the world.

1 Cor 15: 23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Ok, so then do you understand that YHWH is not a plural word, but actually means 'The ONE who exists'? Your statement has kind of a Oneness flavor to it.

The 'title' given to Jesus by God, shows me that Jesus inherited all of God's attributes and authority. For now.

God Bless

 

If you are referring to the [Jesus] in there, I did that! There is no 'God' or 'Jesus' in the original in THAT verse. The first one I quoted said who the 'He' is. It said it was Jesus, that's why I put it in, so you would read it from the perspective of the original, instead of the NIV or even KJV. Cuz there is no 'God' in that verse. (the one I put [Jesus] in)

I can appreciate that.

Ok, so then what about the verses that SAY that God (YHWH) GAVE all power to Jesus, and GAVE the power to judge TO Jesus?

Hmmm. Ok, if God GAVE power to Jesus, does that mean He is without power? Absolutely NOT. It means that He has relenquished CONTROL to Jesus. God is ALWAYS omnipotent. Jesus was GIVEN His power by God. I think perhaps in modern english 'control' would better describe what God handed over. It is not as if God DRAINED all His power into Jesus. He simply gave the Control of things over to Him. Does that make a little more sense to you?

Ok, I took the power thing on that last quote, so I'll take the King and Lord thing here. There can only be ONE 'highest' Authority. By God giving Jesus ALL authority, does not take away from God's Power. In any way. It just VERY simply means that He gave control to Jesus. You can't have 2 King of Kings and Lord of Lords. There can only be one. (I think so anyway). That is what it means! One King over all kings, and One Lord over all Lords. Is the Most High God a King or a Lord, in the sense that people here are? No. Kings and Lords here rule over their lands. God rules over ALL. By that power, He was able to GIVE the 'control' of the WHOLE of the universe over to Jesus. His Son. The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, by inheritance.

Me too. Why do you like it?

Jesus has the name YHWH by inheritance and God is YHWH by name. Do you agree with that?

No problem, and I will do the same.

God Bless

 

Well, considering that in the original text there were no punctuation or verses stops, the transition from 'Jesus Christ' to 'in His times He shall show' clearly shows that the 'He' there is no one other than Jesus. (1 Tim 6: 14-15) So YES, I feel very strongly that it is Jesus who will show us who God is.

Ok, so then if Jesus is YHWH, who is the Father?

Like this?
Psalm 2: 7. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee.
Acts 13: 33. God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Hebrews 1: 4. Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6. And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Hebrews 5: 5. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

God Bless

 

Because, silly, I was trying to prove that 'erchomai' means to 'come out from' and EVERY definition of the word has a meaning that expresses a departure, or movement OUT of one place INTO another. 'Proceeded forth from'.

DHK, I could throw at least another 15 verses in here with that word in it that would support my idea that Jesus DID indeed 'proceed forth from' God. OF COURSE you picked the ones that have NOTHING to do with the context of this discussion. Would it even be worth my time to show you the verses that are RELATED to this subject?

Ok, you should know by now that I don't 'imply' stuff, I say what I mean! I MEAN that I believe that Jesus 'proceeded forth from God'. I am not 'implying' that Jesus was created by God! If Jesus DID proceed forth (or come out) of God, then HE DOES HAVE AN ORIGIN! You can explain it away all you want, but I have shown scripture to support my thesis. If you KNOW so well, SHOW ME. Show FROM SCRIPTURE that Jesus IS without beginning, and was NEVER in His Father, and then Came out, and that He is the ETERNAL GOD. Show me that in the Bible. Otherwise it is just your opinion.

Ok, first you say my interpretation is wrong, even though I am basing it on the KJV translation and the Strongs definition of the word, and THEN you tell me that all it means is to 'come out'! DHK, THAT is what I SAID it means! I am NOT giving it some 'mystical' new meaning. If it MEANS to 'come out' in OTHER places, then it means to 'come out' in THIS case!

Ok, so then it DOES NOT mean what it means every where else, because in the context of ALL the verses about the 'devils' coming out of the people, the devils were IN the people and they 'erchomai' from the people. They were IN, they CAME OUT. <----period

For each of those 6 statements I want to see a verse that proves them.

Ok, WHY did God SAY 'firstborn' if He DID NOT mean firstborn, and WHO ARE YOU to say that it is NOT what He meant??????? Give me a break! There are VERSES that SAY that Jesus HAS the preiminence, and the REASON He has it is BECAUSE He is the FIRSTBORN of all Creation AND the FIRSTBORN from the dead! They DON'T mean the SAME THING! Sheesh.

Ok, I can appreciate you wanting this verse to have something to do with Christ, but it doesn't. David being told that God would MAKE him 'firstborn' has NO resemblance to God saying that Jesus IS the Firstborn. David was made firstborn in the sense that TO BE KING, you must be firstborn. Therefore God was MAKING him the firstborn so that he could be king. Jesus wasn't 'made' the Firstborn.

He ALONE is Eternal? What about the Father? Why do you think it says 'for Him and by Him'? There was SOMEONE ELSE there! God made the worlds THROUGH the Word of God, FOR the Word of God. It was BY the Word of God, that God SPOKE into existence all of Creation, and it consists of the Word of God. It pleased the Father that IN HIM, all the 'fullness' of God should dwell in Him. You know how that works? Jesus was BEGOTTEN by the Father, when Jesus 'proceeded forth from' God, and it is the SAME Spirit that is in Christ, that is in the Father. All the fullness of the Invisible God, the Most High God, is in the Image of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Most High God.

His being 'before' does NOT mean that He has no beginning! I was born before my 3 little sisters. It can be said that I was before ALL the females in my family. Does that mean that I was never born because I was the FIRSTBORN of the females in my family? You know, in EVERY instance of the word 'firstborn' in the Bible, with the exeption of the David passage you posted, the person mentioned was the LITERAL firstborn child of a set of parents that had multiple children! EVERY ONE! Do you honestly think that because ONE verse, that is TOTALLY a special circumstance (David being crowned King when he wasn't in line for the throne), has a different meaning that ALL the ones where Jesus is called 'firstborn' will have a 'special' meaning? YOU are wanting that word to mean something that it doesn't!

Yes, all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ, the Spirit of God, dwells in Christ, therefore determining His deity. It DOES NOT make Him the Most High God. It does not mean that He DID NOT proceed forth from God. It does not mean that He is equal to God in every respect. It does not mean that He has ALWAYS been.

It was God's pleasure for all the fulless of God to dwell in Jesus. The fulness of God is His Spirit. Because God IS a Spirit. GOD determined to beget Jesus 'this day'. What day that was, I don't know, but there is AMPLE evidence that there was a DAY that Jesus was begotten of the Father.

In the Express Image of the Invisible God.

He is the Firstborn of the living, and the Firstfruit of the dead so that He might have the preimmenence over all things.

And WHAT does that preimmenence do for GOD?

It made it possible for Him to reconcile ALL things to Himself, so that He is NOW the God of BOTH the dead AND the living!

Through the shed Blood of His precious SON, Jesus Christ.

God Bless

 

DHK,

You aren't a trinitarian.

Mee and Oneness would agree with what you just posted.

They are also not trinitarian.

What you just described is the Oneness doctrine of the Godhead.

God Bless

 

That's all well and good, but you said that Jesus is 'the Jehovah of the OT'. That is a Oneness doctrine. That Jesus is simply another manefestation of God. That Jehovah in the OT BECAME Jesus in the NT era.

What makes you think that I am agreeing with you? I said that Mee and Oneness would agree with you. If I was talking about myself I would have said 'Oneness and I'. Repent? Of what? Calling Jesus the Son of God? I hate to break it to you (not really) but the equation of the requirement for salvation is not 'believe that Jesus is God'. And as far as you saying that I am making God a liar, I think you might want to read this:

1 John 5: 9. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

It looks to me that the one who says that God doesn't REALLY have a Son is the one making Him a liar.

God Bless

 

Neither. I am a child of God, who reads the Bible. What part of those statements did you find untrue? Did you find a verse that says that Jesus claimed to be the Most High God? Did you find one that said He claimed to be the 2nd person of the Godhead? How about verses that say that He claimed to be the Son of God? BINGO!

No he doesn't. He said that 'God blessed forever' referring to Jesus. Meaning nothing more than the fact that God has given Jesus the preimenence over all things and blessed Him forever.

Actually it doesn't say that. That passage is actually the best description of HOW Jesus proceeded forth from His Father. He is the Word of God. In the beginning (before He proceeded forth) He was with God, and was God, because He had yet to proceed forth from God. Once He proceeded forth from God, He was His Son. 'TODAY have I begotten thee'. AND THEN He put on flesh and dwelt among us! As a completely separated person from His Father, and DIED, something that GOD CANNOT DO.

Yes, and then John also records the Words of Christ, and the conclusion of the matter:
29. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reason that these things were written were so that we would believe that Jesus is the SON of God, and that by believing we might have life through His Name. The SON.

Do you think I don't own a Bible or something? Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the Great God AND our Savior Jesus Christ". That Word there 'and' is a conjunction that denotes MORE THAN ONE. When it is placed between two names it means MORE THAN ONE person. Jesus is Coming in ALL His Father's Glory, and when He comes we will see BOTH the Father and the Son. BOTH, the Great God, and His Son, our Savior Jesus Chirst are coming.

Hardly, are you? Why should I take YOUR interpretation over what God has shown me?

I surely hope not. I would be really lonely in Heaven if I am the only one!

Aren't you testy! Do I have secret knowledge? I can only answer that with this:
Romans 11: 33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

You planning on burning me at the stake? I confess that Jesus is the Son of God, as the Word of God tells me to. There is NO verse that states that I must confess that Jesus is the most High God to be saved. NOT ONE.

John 8: 42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jesus didn't say 'proceedeth'. He said 'I proceeded forth'. That is past tense. And you are right, that the sent part is ALSO past tense. Jesus IS in the Father's bosom, because the Jesus is in God, and God in Jesus through God's Spirit. They 'share' the Spirit of God. (for lack of a better term). Interesting that you should bring up that text, the fulness of it is quite detrimental to the trinity doctrine.
John 1:18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
If Jesus is God, then John is a liar, because HE HIMSELF saw Jesus.

Ok, if it wasn't for the statement 'considering He is God, this cannot mean He is created' I would have thought that you were quoting me! Jesus is the image of the invisible God, MAKING IT IMPOSSIBLE for Him to BE GOD. Is the Father ALSO just 'an image'? Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, born, or begotten, (by God) BEFORE all of Creation was created (because we know that He took part in the creation). SO BECAUSE He was the firstborn of all Creation, He has the preimenence over all creation, and because He is the firstfruit from the dead, He has the preimenence over ALL things.

So that ALL THINGS can be reconciled to God, so that in the end God will be ALL in ALL.

God Bless

 

I don't agree with this because of Romans 10:9. I know you will say otherwise, 3AM, but I think it is referring to Jesus as God, i.e. acknowledging who He is.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Anyone here who DOES NOT disagree with you is doing it simply for the sake of maintaining disagreement with me!

9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Do you think that He RAISED HIMSELF????

God Bless

 

DHK,

Why would I do that? I am not saying that Jesus is not 'God'.

I am saying that He is not the Most High God.

You take all those verses and show that they are saying He is the Most High God!

THAT is what I am arguing.

I must say that I am not trying to convince you to agree with me, I am merely explaining to you why I believe what I believe. If you are trying to convince me of something, you are going to have to at least pay attention to what I am claiming!

Jesus is not THE MOST HIGH GOD.

God Bless