Trinity revisited!

[DHK]

Originally posted by hrhema:
When Jesus said he was going to send ANOTHER comforter he was not speaking about another person as Trinitarians claim. Jesus said that this other comforter was already with them. Who was with them? Jesus! Why do Trinitarians ignore what Jesus said.

Why do you ignore what Jesus so plainly said hrema? Are you calling Him a liar?

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
DHK

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hrhema:
When Jesus said he was going to send ANOTHER comforter he was not speaking about another person as Trinitarians claim. Jesus said that this other comforter was already with them. Who was with them? Jesus! Why do Trinitarians ignore what Jesus said.

Why do you ignore what Jesus so plainly said hrema? Are you calling Him a liar?

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I don’t think we are ignoring what Jesus said DHK. Jesus said “I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you (John 14:18). Just before that Jesus said “And I will pray the Father and he will send you Another comforter that he (the comforter) may abide with you forever. Even the Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receive b/c it seeth Him (the comforter) not, neither know Him (the comforter) but ye know Him (the comforter) for He (the comforter) dwelleth with you, and shall be in you (John 14:16-17)

Jesus is getting ready to leave this world. He promised that he would come again to Be in them (John 14:17). Not as a man this time but as the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said in John 14:26 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My Name…”

What name is the Holy Spirit going to come in? Jesus!

Now lets go back to my original question. What Name is Matt 28:19 speaking of? Well now we know that the Holy Spirit is going to be Jesus in Spirit form, and we know that the Holy Spirit is going to come in the Name of Jesus.

God bless

 

[hrhema]

I am not ignoring what Jesus said DHK You are.
Jesus said the OTHER COMFORTER was living with them. HE was living with them. HE said that he would not leave them comfortless that he was coming back to them but this time in spirit form not in a fleshly body.

You criticize others and state they are not reading scripture but this is exactly what you are doing. Just because Jesus said OTHER does not equal another person in the Godhead no more than the fact the personal pronoun HE was used. Since Jesus was male gender his spirit would be male gender.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by hrhema:
I am not ignoring what Jesus said DHK You are.
Jesus said the OTHER COMFORTER was living with them. HE was living with them. HE said that he would not leave them comfortless that he was coming back to them but this time in spirit form not in a fleshly body.

You criticize others and state they are not reading scripture but this is exactly what you are doing. Just because Jesus said OTHER does not equal another person in the Godhead no more than the fact the personal pronoun HE was used. Since Jesus was male gender his spirit would be male gender.

Who is ignoring facts here? Consider the facts:

1. Jesus said the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. You deny that, you deny the Word of God, and the subject is closed.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,

2. The Holy Spirit did not come to indwell believers until the time of Pentecost. They did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at that time. In fact if you read Acts 1, Jesus specifically told them to wait for it.

3. Jesus only indwells the believer in the power of the Holy Spirit. In body He sits at the right hand of God. He has sent His Holy Spirit to indwell each believer. Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, indwells each believer. This is the mystery of the triune Godhead which you fail to believe nor can understand. "Christ in you the hope of glory."
DHK

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hrhema:
I am not ignoring what Jesus said DHK You are.
Jesus said the OTHER COMFORTER was living with them. HE was living with them. HE said that he would not leave them comfortless that he was coming back to them but this time in spirit form not in a fleshly body.

You criticize others and state they are not reading scripture but this is exactly what you are doing. Just because Jesus said OTHER does not equal another person in the Godhead no more than the fact the personal pronoun HE was used. Since Jesus was male gender his spirit would be male gender.

Who is ignoring facts here? Consider the facts:

1. Jesus said the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. You deny that, you deny the Word of God, and the subject is closed.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,

2. The Holy Spirit did not come to indwell believers until the time of Pentecost. They did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at that time. In fact if you read Acts 1, Jesus specifically told them to wait for it.

3. Jesus only indwells the believer in the power of the Holy Spirit. In body He sits at the right hand of God. He has sent His Holy Spirit to indwell each believer. Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, indwells each believer. This is the mystery of the triune Godhead which you fail to believe nor can understand. "Christ in you the hope of glory."
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Mystery of the Triune Godhead? There is no mystery of the Trinity. There's not one. The bible says in Romans 1:20 "From the invisible things of him (not them) from creation are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and GODHEAD; so that they are without excuse.

What you are saying is in contridiction with the bible. You say the God head is a mystery. Romans says that it is without excuse. There is no mystery that there is One God.

On the other hand the bible does say in 1 Tim 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory".

The mystery is how God can be One but yet do all of these things. We know that God is omnipresent. The bible says in Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Everywhere we go we will find that God is already there.


It's a mystery how God be God and do the things that he can do. But to know who and what the Godhead is, is not a mystery.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by ONENESS:

Mystery of the Triune Godhead?

On the other hand the bible does say in 1 Tim 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory".

The mystery is how God can be ...

Let me finish it for you. ..."manifest in the flesh."
Quote it properly. The mystery of godliness is "God was manifest in the flesh." Who is God" Jesus Christ is God. He is the One who was manifest in the flesh. You are right. There is only one God. That is Jesus Christ.
There is only one God. That is the Holy Spirit, where Ananias lies to Him. He is God. Check Acts 5.
There is only One God: Isa. 43:10,11. He will not give His glory to another. There was no god formed after Him neither was there any god formed before Him. He alone is God. And besides Him there is no Saviour. There is only one God.

There is no replacement of one God with another God. There is no manifestation of one God with another God. All three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirt have existed from all eternity. They are God. They are three distinct personalities; yet in One God.
DHK

 

[hrhema]

DHK: I don't deny the Holy Ghost in the least bit. It is the spirit of God. Not a person.
The spirit of God that resides in men. You cannot prove the Holy Ghost is a person and you can argue to doomsday but it always falls back to the same argument that holds no water. Trinitarians claim the Godhead is a mystery. Paul does not agree. That is Bible. You accuse me on other posts about not reading the scriptures but it is obvious you ignore what you want to ignore.

You said the Holy Ghost did not infill anyone until the Day of Pentecost. That is not true.
It filled Zacharias and Elizabeth and John The Baptist. The Old TEstament said individuals had the spirit of God come upon them to prophesy etc.

I stand in amazement when individuals accuse others of not reading scripture but fail to do so themselves. Again explain why Jesus said that the disciples knew the Holy Ghost and that he resided with them but would be in them. You have failed to explain that. I am waiting for your explanation of that. I am waiting for you to explain why Jesus said that he would not leave them comfortless but he would come to them. you seem to skirt those issues. I address them.

 

[Logan]

Originally posted by hrhema:
DHK: I don't deny the Holy Ghost in the least bit. It is the spirit of God. Not a person.

If the Holy Spirit is God'S impersonal voice per say, then why does He speak directly and refer to Himself as "I" and "Me" in Acts 13:2?

 

[3AngelsMom]

Logan,

God's Spirit IS God.

BECAUSE.....

Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

God Bless

 

[Logan]

3Angels:

O.K., a couple of points...IN Acts 13:2 The Holy Spirit speaks to the disciples, telling them to set apart Saul and Barnabas for the work God has planned for them. A non-personal "active force" per se, can not speak like a person, much less God.

Also in Acts 5:1-4, like DHK has already alluded to, when Ananias lied, Peter told him that he had lied to the Holy Spirit and in lying to the Holy Spirit he had lied to God. This passage is a clear and accurate truth of the personhood and divinity of the Holy Spirit.

The verses you quoted do say that "God is spirit." But the context is not saying that the Holy Spirit is not a part of the Holy Trinity.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Logan,

God's Spirit IS God.

I don't know what you were talking about!

I never said the Spirit of God is some impersonal force.

I believe the Holy Spirit is God.

Because GOD is a Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not a SEPARATE person from God, is what I was getting at.

I won't be responding to anything else you say, I just wanted to clarify what I meant!

God Bless

 

[Dualhunter]

39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. - John 7:39 NASB

Who gave the Spirit whom we agree is God? Is it not "God the giver" who has given "God the given" now that Jesus has been glorified?

Likewise:

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will wave My hand over them so that they will be plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.
10 "Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," declares the LORD.
11 "Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. - Zechariah 2:8-11 NASB

"God the sender" (i.e. the Father) has sent "God the sent" (i.e. the Son) after glory.

 

[hrhema]

The Holy Spirit could not be poured out upon men until Jesus was glorified because he was still here on Earth. When he returned to Heaven he was going to send the Holy Spirit to dwell with men.

The fact that personal pronouns were used to describe the Holy Spirit does not mean it proves a person. Jesus is male and his spirit is male. The Father is male. He is spirit. Nor does the fact that the spirit within us speaks to our heart make the Holy Spirit a person.

The argument that John proves the Holy Spirit is a person is all wet. I reiterate again. Jesus said that HE WOULD NOT LEAVE THEM COMFORTLESS. HE WAS COMING TO THEM. He told them the Holy Spirit was known by them and lived with them but we know Jesus was who was known to them and lived with them. Jesus said but the next time he would be living in them.

Peter telling Ananias that he had lied to the Holy Ghost then later said he lied to God does not prove three persons. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God poured out on men. So using the phrase God is appropriate.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by hrhema:
The Holy Spirit could not be poured out upon men until Jesus was glorified because he was still here on Earth. When he returned to Heaven he was going to send the Holy Spirit to dwell with men.

You said it yourself and yet you don't understand? Jesus returned to heaven with the intention of sending the Holy Spirit to dwell with men.

 

[hrhema]

Dualhunter: I do understand. Jesus went to Heaven to send the spirit to dwell with man. Not a person. God's spirit. Not a third part of a Trinity. Some believe he sent his Father's spirit and others believe he sent his own spirit back to dwell with men and this indwelling was called the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by hrhema:
Dualhunter: I do understand. Jesus went to Heaven to send the spirit to dwell with man. Not a person. God's spirit. Not a third part of a Trinity. Some believe he sent his Father's spirit and others believe he sent his own spirit back to dwell with men and this indwelling was called the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, - Romans 8:9-16 NASB

Among the things to notice are that refering to the 1 Spirit, the titles: Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead, and Christ Himself are all used. Also notice that "The Spirit Himself testifies...". The Spirit is a He, not an it.

 

[hrhema]

The scriptures call the Holy Ghost the spirit of God. The Spirit of Christ. The Spirit of the Father. And on and on.

My point exactly is that Jesus said he was coming back to them. That he that dwelleth with them would be in them.

Jesus is a he and so is the Father so yes their spirit would be refered to in the masculine.

 

[Dualhunter]

You said it yourself by quoting scripture, Jesus left to send the Spirit not to return as the Spirit. Jesus sent, the Spirit was sent.

 

[hrhema]

Jesus sent back his spirit. Thus the Holy Ghost was Sent. THe fact that the spirit was sent does not prove three persons in one Godhead.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by hrhema:
Jesus sent back his spirit. Thus the Holy Ghost was Sent. THe fact that the spirit was sent does not prove three persons in one Godhead.

That fact by itself simply proves that there was a sender and one who was sent. I'm confident that you can count to 2.