Trinity

[steaver]

Does anyone else here find it odd that a Christian, having the Holy Spirit of God, having the Spirit of Christ, and after studying the Scriptures through prayer could come to the conclusion that there is no Trinity with God?

I understand that many of Christians may not comprehend God as being a Trinity, but could they conclude that the Scriptures have not without a doubt revealed the Trinity to man?

Doubting Thomas posted a good brief exopsition on Eternal Life;

I think here is where a good part of the misconception lies. The Apostle John wrote this:
"11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:11-12)

Notice that eternal life is IN CHRIST--it's not located in us independent of our connection to Christ. This is further supported earlier in the epistle when John wrote:
" 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- " (1 John1:2)
So, again, we see that ETERNAL Life is located in the PERSON of Christ. He is ETERNAL--with no beginning or end. We only POSSESS this life in time when we embrace Christ. In otherwords, our possesion of eternal life is not eternal as it had a beginning point in time. And if we are ever severed from Christ through unbelief, then that possession of eternal life will also have an ending in time as well.

"12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life".

The Scripture is quite clear! "that eternal life which was with the Father" IS Jesus Christ. Only God is Eternal. Christians share in God's eternal life through that Eternal life Himself, Jesus Christ....the Son of God.

Romans 8:9 makes it perfectly clear that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are Equal.....

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings steaver,

Does anyone else here find it odd that a Christian, having the Holy Spirit of God, having the Spirit of Christ, and after studying the Scriptures through prayer could come to the conclusion that there is no Trinity with God?

I understand that many of Christians may not comprehend God as being a Trinity, but could they conclude that the Scriptures have not without a doubt revealed the Trinity to man?

I conclude that the Scriptures do not teach the Trinity, but teach that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Could you tell me when the word “Trinity” was first used? I understand that the word did not appear until the 3rd Century or even later.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[12strings]

If you find the following in the scriptures:

1. The Bible teaches that there is ONE GOD.
2. Jesus is the son of God.
3. Jesus is God.
4. The holy spirit is God.
5. Jesus prayed to his father, and spoke of sending the holy spirit, and that the father would send the holy spirit.


Then how else, other than a trinity of one God with 3 persons...do you explain the biblical evidence?

 

[steaver]

Greetings steaver,


I conclude that the Scriptures do not teach the Trinity, but teach that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Could you tell me when the word “Trinity” was first used? I understand that the word did not appear until the 3rd Century or even later.

Kind regards
Trevor

When the word Trinity was first used to describe the Godhead, three persons in One God, is actually irrelevent. Let's deal with the Scriptures on this. Let's begin with the Scripture posted in the OP which declares Jesus Christ is Eternal.

Could you explain how Jesus Christ is Eternal, yet not God?

 

[percho]

If you find the following in the scriptures:

1. The Bible teaches that there is ONE GOD.
2. Jesus is the son of God.
3. Jesus is God.
4. The holy spirit is God.
5. Jesus prayed to his father, and spoke of sending the holy spirit, and that the father would send the holy spirit.


Then how else, other than a trinity of one God with 3 persons...do you explain the biblical evidence?

However Jesus also said in that same passage that is he did not go away the Comforter, the Spirit of truth would not come. And added; If I depart I will send him unto you.

Compare to John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

God [is] a Spirit John 4:24 or Greek interlinear of John 4:23-24 Jesus the Son says, "The Father such is seeking ones worshiping him Spirit the God."

Jesus the Son of Man, the Son of the Living God said he must go away or the Comforter would not come to them or John 14:18 he, Jesus would not come to them and then the very next day Jesus commended the only spirit of himself into the hands of the Father, Him, Spirit the God and Jesus the Son of God died.

This is fact from the word of God. Jesus the son of God died. God gave his only begotten Son. DHK not withstanding.

Three days and three nights later Spirit the God the Father of Jesus the Son raised Jesus the Son from the dead with life within himself, eternal life. John 5:26 Titus 1:2 Gal 3:18,19 inheritance of eternal life to the seed of the promise, by which father Abraham will also receive eternal life.

Then having so been risen from the dead: Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

The Comforter Jesus in the Spirit of Spirit the God could come to us.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Titus 3:5,6 say the very same thing as the above.

Read and compare.


Please


I believe this to be relative.

And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Luke 20:34,35 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

Why is woman called woman? Because she was taken from the man made in the image of God. There was found no helper (help meet) for him

What is that word helper (help meet)?. Comforter.

 

[12strings]

However Jesus also said in that same passage that is he did not go away the Comforter, the Spirit of truth would not come. And added; If I depart I will send him unto you.

Compare to John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

God [is] a Spirit John 4:24 or Greek interlinear of John 4:23-24 Jesus the Son says, "The Father such is seeking ones worshiping him Spirit the God."

Jesus the Son of Man, the Son of the Living God said he must go away or the Comforter would not come to them or John 14:18 he, Jesus would not come to them and then the very next day Jesus commended the only spirit of himself into the hands of the Father, Him, Spirit the God and Jesus the Son of God died.

This is fact from the word of God. Jesus the son of God died. God gave his only begotten Son. DHK not withstanding.

Three days and three nights later Spirit the God the Father of Jesus the Son raised Jesus the Son from the dead with life within himself, eternal life. John 5:26 Titus 1:2 Gal 3:18,19 inheritance of eternal life to the seed of the promise, by which father Abraham will also receive eternal life.

Then having so been risen from the dead: Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

The Comforter Jesus in the Spirit of Spirit the God could come to us.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Titus 3:5,6 say the very same thing as the above.

Read and compare.


Please


I believe this to be relative.

And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Luke 20:34,35 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

Why is woman called woman? Because she was taken from the man made in the image of God. There was found no helper (help meet) for him

What is that word helper (help meet)?. Comforter.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult...but I just can't follow any of what you are saying...

Do you think Jesus IS the Holy Spirit?
Do you think the Father IS the Holy Spirit?

What's your point?

 

[percho]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult...but I just can't follow any of what you are saying...

Do you think Jesus IS the Holy Spirit?
Do you think the Father IS the Holy Spirit?

What's your point?

By the way I know, no Greek. Lets be honest about that. Let the Greek gurus answer.

Does the Greek of John 4:23,24 have Jesus saying, one he himself calls as my Father being, "Spirit the God?"

Is this the same Spirit the God of Matthew 1:20 where the Greek, I think, states, "The for in her being generated out of Spirit is Holy?" Scripture4all.org. Interlinear Greek.

How does 1 John 4:2,3 say Jesus Christ came?
In flesh having come out of the God

Not as, is Spirit but as, is flesh. As the scriptures say; Did the Spirit God through a virgin woman beget his Son Jesus the Christ? Did the Spirit God in Christ Jesus, self empty Phil. 2:7 and still also remain in heaven.

Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am." Greek: ἐγὼ εἰμί, literally, I Am.

Was the literal, I Am in John 8:58 stating the fulfillment of prophesy of the literal of Ehyeh asher ehyeh? Translated by KJV as I Am that I Am. literally: I will be what I will be or I shall become who I am becoming. Scripture4all.org
Interlinear Hebrew.

Did he die? DHK says no,well his body died. Did he the person the I Am, the Son of the Living God die? Did the Father of him raise Jesus the Son from the dead by Spirit Holy? Did Jesus the Son receive from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit? Did the Father then shed, pour out this Spirit on man through the Son Jesus Titus 3:6 thus in Spirit the Son and the Father comforts us. John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver and Greetings 12strings,

When the word Trinity was first used to describe the Godhead, three persons in One God, is actually irrelevent. Let's deal with the Scriptures on this. Let's begin with the Scripture posted in the OP which declares Jesus Christ is Eternal.

Could you explain how Jesus Christ is Eternal, yet not God?

You may not think it is relevant, but the term trinity does not appear in the Bible, and many of the terms used to explain the Trinity are reflected in the Creeds developed many centuries after Christ and the Apostles. These Creeds do not reflect Bible teaching. I am not sure if you endorse the Creeds. An example of part of one of these is in the following:

The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. …there are not three incomprehensibles .. but .. one incomprehensible… He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

In contrast the Bible has the opposite message, that there is only One True God, the Father, and it is necessary to know God and Jesus Christ:
John 17:3 (KJV): And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I will be happy to consider the Scriptures and ignore the Creeds. In doing so I must reject using the term “Trinity” and use the Scriptural terms.

When the believer receives eternal life it is saying that they will be eternal from the time of their receipt of eternal life. It does not say that they have been eternal with no beginning. Jesus is the extension of the Eternal Life whose source is in God the Father. He then becomes the source of eternal life for all believers. It does not prove that he was a separate person with eternal life with no beginning. John 1 and Proverbs 8 use the same language for The Word and Wisdom. All these are qualities of God the Father, not separate entities. Jesus Himself is a development of the Yahweh Name, but all things have their source in the one God, Yahweh Himself, that is God the Father.

If you find the following in the scriptures:

1. The Bible teaches that there is ONE GOD.
2. Jesus is the son of God.
3. Jesus is God.
4. The holy spirit is God.
5. Jesus prayed to his father, and spoke of sending the holy spirit, and that the father would send the holy spirit.

Then how else, other than a trinity of one God with 3 persons...do you explain the biblical evidence?

I agree with items 1&2. For item 3 I would like to explain this by comparing Thomas’ confession with Jesus’ explanation of the usage of the word “God” throughout Scripture:
John 20:28 (KJV): And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DHK]

I agree with items 1&2. For item 3 I would like to explain this by comparing Thomas’ confession with Jesus’ explanation of the usage of the word “God” throughout Scripture:
John 20:28 (KJV): And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Kind regards
Trevor

This passage works against you. You misunderstand it. Look carefully:

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

The Jews understood perfectly the words of Christ. To them he was committing blasphemy, that is claiming to be God. When he had said, "I and my Father are one," he was claiming deity, not just purpose. They knew it. That is why they responded in this way.
You are committing blasphemy they said. You are claiming to be God.
And of course (though they didn't want to believe it) they were right. He was and is God.

 

[steaver]

When the believer receives eternal life it is saying that they will be eternal from the time of their receipt of eternal life. It does not say that they have been eternal with no beginning.

When the believer receives eternal life it is because the believe receives Jesus Christ whom is Eternal Life. Without Christ there is no eternal life. This is why one must be born of God, that is, Christ IN YOU, GOD in you! Read Romans 8.

Jesus is the extension of the Eternal Life whose source is in God the Father. .

Please supply a scripture that says Jesus is an extension of Eternal life. You said you want to stick with bible terms.

No where does is say such or suggest such a thing. The scripture is specific when it states that Jesus Christ IS that Eternal Life. Why do you not accept the clear words given in the scripture??

He then becomes the source of eternal life for all believers. It does not prove that he was a separate person with eternal life with no beginning.

Then you simply are refusing to accept what it says.

John 1 and Proverbs 8 use the same language for The Word and Wisdom. All these are qualities of God the Father, not separate entities. Jesus Himself is a development of the Yahweh Name, but all things have their source in the one God, Yahweh Himself, that is God the Father

Which supports that Christ is God for Christ is the Word and John declares the Word was with God and the Word was God. And please do not try the rewrite of Joihn chapter one as does the false teachers of the JW's do also. It says what it says, accept it, do not change God's Word to make it fit a false premise, that is what satan does.

Trevor, ye must be born again! Do you understand what that means? That it is God in you? Which is Christ in you?

 

[percho]

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs (not yet inheritors) according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it]. Rom. 8:24,25
When Christ, our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Col 3:4
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. Romans 8:17 (Joint heirs with Christ of what?)


Maybe this? Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. -----(I know Christ what does that have to do with joint heirs with Christ? Because of the word grace. Please follow.)

YLT Gal. 2:16 I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness [be] through law -- then Christ died in vain.

(If the grace of God is void, Christ died in vain therefore the righteousness of God would have been through the law, yet we are told many places it does not come through the law.)
1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

(Gal 2:16 says that is vain if the grace of God is void. What is that Grace?)

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:16,17


The death of Christ dying for you (your faith) is vain if He is not raised from the dead. The grace of God is the resurrection of his Son from the dead.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

The inheritance, eternal life, is by a promise not of the law. The promise was given to Abraham in that it would come through his seed, singular, that is the Christ, Jesus, not Isaac.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:16 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave to Abraham by promise (Of a seed, singular). Gal 3:18 -----NOW----Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


There are two absolute truths that were said to be, before it was said,
"Let there be light."

(1) the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world,
1 Peter 118,19

(2) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;


Who is the only seed of promise in the word of God?

Only through him does anyone inherit anything.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

There is a moment in time when Son inherited from the Father.

Jesus came as the prophet.
Jesus is currently the priest.
Jesus is coming as the king.

The Christ the Son of the Living God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Greetings steaver,


I conclude that the Scriptures do not teach the Trinity, but teach that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Could you tell me when the word “Trinity” was first used? I understand that the word did not appear until the 3rd Century or even later.

Kind regards
Trevor

neither is the word "bible" found in it!

John CLEARLY teaches that Jesus was eternally with the Father, was God, yet NOT the father!

peter called the Holy Spirit GOD

Peter called jesus our great GOD and saviour!

Clearly, the Apostles saw jesus as being God in human flesh, see Thomas!

And knew God was 3 persons in ONE being!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings DHK,

This passage works against you. You misunderstand it. Look carefully:

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

The Jews understood perfectly the words of Christ. To them he was committing blasphemy, that is claiming to be God. When he had said, "I and my Father are one," he was claiming deity, not just purpose. They knew it. That is why they responded in this way.

You are committing blasphemy they said. You are claiming to be God.
And of course (though they didn't want to believe it) they were right. He was and is God.

John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
I am attempting to look carefully and as yet I see it differently. As a result of Jesus saying: “I and my Father are one” they accused him of blasphemy: “because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God”. You endorse their assessment of Jesus’ statement, and interpret Jesus’ words as a claim to be God: “And of course (though they didn't want to believe it) they were right. He was and is God.”

Could you show me from the citation of John 10:30-36 where Jesus endorses their assessment, where Jesus says: “Yes, that is what I am saying, I am God”? It is not there. I have underlined the first and last phrase of vv30-36, and this is Jesus’ statement interpreting what he means. He said initially “I and my Father are one” and Jesus explains this by saying, “I said, I am the Son of God”. The rest of vv30-36 is further clarification by Jesus to show why it was valid to make the claim that he was in unity with God, his Father, and that as a result he could rightfully claim to be the Son of God, as he states. This additional explanation is based upon the Scripture usage of the word Elohim or God, gods in the OT where the judges in Israel were designated Elohim because they represented God in their judgements. If you would like me to elaborate on the various places where Elohim occurs for these judges I could add this, but you should be familiar with this.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

When the believer receives eternal life it is because the believe receives Jesus Christ whom is Eternal Life. Without Christ there is no eternal life. This is why one must be born of God, that is, Christ IN YOU, GOD in you! Read Romans 8.

Please supply a scripture that says Jesus is an extension of Eternal life. You said you want to stick with bible terms.

No where does is say such or suggest such a thing. The scripture is specific when it states that Jesus Christ IS that Eternal Life. Why do you not accept the clear words given in the scripture??

Could you please consider the following Scriptures which I consider foundation verses when discussing who is the Lord Jesus Christ. I will briefly state some aspects that I draw from these verses, and these in my mind must first be considered before such themes as Eternal Life are considered.

Psalm 8:4-6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Psalm 80:17 (KJV): Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.
The Psalmist uses the creation language of Genesis 1-3 to speak of the creation of a new man who would fulfil the role of Adam who failed. He was to be a Son of Man (Adam) but specially strengthened by God, so that all the earth will become subject under him.

Luke 1:30-35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Here is revealed the conception and birth process of the Lord Jesus Christ. God the Father was the father of Jesus, Mary in the line of King David was the mother, and the conception was by means of the power of God, the Holy Spirit. I cannot accept that Jesus existed before he was conceived and born.

Luke 2:40 (KJV): And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Luke 2:52 (KJV): And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Jesus underwent a learning process instructed by Mary and Joseph, and especially by God His Father. Therefore Jesus was not a continuation of a pre-existent being, otherwise he would already have full knowledge.

The above is the basis which I commence to try to understand some of the more difficult passages that you present. I hope you will be patient with me.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[12strings]

Greetings DHK,

John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
I am attempting to look carefully and as yet I see it differently. As a result of Jesus saying: “I and my Father are one” they accused him of blasphemy: “because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God”. You endorse their assessment of Jesus’ statement, and interpret Jesus’ words as a claim to be God: “And of course (though they didn't want to believe it) they were right. He was and is God.”

Could you show me from the citation of John 10:30-36 where Jesus endorses their assessment, where Jesus says: “Yes, that is what I am saying, I am God”? It is not there. I have underlined the first and last phrase of vv30-36, and this is Jesus’ statement interpreting what he means. He said initially “I and my Father are one” and Jesus explains this by saying, “I said, I am the Son of God”. The rest of vv30-36 is further clarification by Jesus to show why it was valid to make the claim that he was in unity with God, his Father, and that as a result he could rightfully claim to be the Son of God, as he states. This additional explanation is based upon the Scripture usage of the word Elohim or God, gods in the OT where the judges in Israel were designated Elohim because they represented God in their judgements. If you would like me to elaborate on the various places where Elohim occurs for these judges I could add this, but you should be familiar with this.

Kind regards
Trevor

So to clarify, you hold to ONE, non-trinitarian God?
-Who is Jesus? Just a man? something in between?
-Who is the Holy Spirit? The same as God the Father?
-How do explain the Father "sending" the Holy Spirit?
-And do you claim that you understand this issue better than the myraids of accomplished Christian Scholars throughout the last 2,000 years who believed in the trinity?

 

[DHK]

Greetings DHK,

John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
I am attempting to look carefully and as yet I see it differently. As a result of Jesus saying: “I and my Father are one” they accused him of blasphemy: “because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God”. You endorse their assessment of Jesus’ statement, and interpret Jesus’ words as a claim to be God: “And of course (though they didn't want to believe it) they were right. He was and is God.”

Could you show me from the citation of John 10:30-36 where Jesus endorses their assessment, where Jesus says: “Yes, that is what I am saying, I am God”? It is not there.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
--This is not a statement of unity (as the J.W.'s believe; it is a statement of deity!
A.T. Robertson, Greek scholar explains it this way:

One (hen). Neuter, not masculine (heis). Not one person (cf. heis in Ga 3:28), but one essence or nature. By the plural sumus (separate persons) Sabellius is refuted, by unum Arius. So Bengel rightly argues, though Jesus is not referring, of course, to either Sabellius or Arius. The Pharisees had accused Jesus of making himself equal with God as his own special Father (Joh 5:18). Jesus then admitted and proved this claim (Joh 5:19-30). Now he states it tersely in this great saying repeated later (Joh 17:11,21). Note hen used in 1Co 3:3 of the oneness in work of the planter and the waterer and in Joh 17:11,23 of the hoped for unity of Christ's disciples. This crisp statement is the climax of Christ's claims concerning the relation between the Father and himself (the Son). They stir the Pharisees to uncontrollable anger.

He is claiming deity; not unity. And the Jews knew it.

I have underlined the first and last phrase of vv30-36, and this is Jesus’ statement interpreting what he means. He said initially “I and my Father are one” and Jesus explains this by saying, “I said, I am the Son of God”.

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Again Robertson:

Thou blasphemest

(hoti blasphêmeis). Recitative hoti again before direct quotation. Because I said (hoti eipon). Causal use of hoti and regular form eipon (cf. eipa in verse Joh 10:34). I am the Son of God (huios tou theou eimi). Direct quotation again after eipon. This Jesus had implied long before as in Joh 2:16 (my Father) and had said in Joh 5:18-30 (the Father, the Son), in Joh 9:35, and virtually in Joh 10:30.

As you can see "the son of God" does not necessarily refer to John 10:30. Jesus had used the term many times before. Even if not said explicitly the term is implied in John 10:30, and to the Jews has the same meaning of deity. To you that may not be true but there is a stark distinction between "son of man" and "son of God," the latter referring to deity.

The rest of vv30-36 is further clarification by Jesus to show why it was valid to make the claim that he was in unity with God, his Father, and that as a result he could rightfully claim to be the Son of God, as he states.

That is not what he was claiming. If he was simply claiming unity the Jews would not have accused him of blasphemy. They accused him of blasphemy because he claimed deity in 10:30.

This additional explanation is based upon the Scripture usage of the word Elohim or God, gods in the OT where the judges in Israel were designated Elohim because they represented God in their judgements. If you would like me to elaborate on the various places where Elohim occurs for these judges I could add this, but you should be familiar with this.

Kind regards
Trevor

Again on verses 34 and 35

Is it not written? (ouk estin gegrammenon;). Periphrastic perfect passive indicative of graphô (as in Joh 2:17) in place of the usual gegraptai. "Does it not stand written?" In your law (en tôi nomôi humôn). From Ps 82:6. The term nomos (law) applying here to the entire O.T. as in Joh 12:34; 15:25; Ro 3:19; 1Co 14:21. Aleph D Syr-sin. omit humôn, but needlessly. We have it already so from Jesus in Joh 8:17. They posed as the special custodians of the O.T. I said (hoti egô eipa). Recitative hoti before a direct quotation like our quotation marks. Eipa is a late second aorist form of indicative with -a instead of -on. Ye are gods (theoi este). Another direct quotation after eipa but without hoti. The judges of Israel abused their office and God is represented in Ps 82:6 as calling them "gods" (theoi, elohim) because they were God's representatives. See the same use of elohim in Ex 21:6; 22:9,28. Jesus meets the rabbis on their own ground in a thoroughly Jewish way.

If he called them gods (ei ekeinous eipen theous). Condition of first class, assumed as true. The conclusion (verse Joh 10:36) is humeis legete; (Do ye say?). As Jews (and rabbis) they are shut out from charging Jesus with blasphemy because of this usage in the O.T. It is a complete ad hominem argument. To be sure, it is in Ps 82:6 a lower use of the term theos, but Jesus did not call himself "Son of Jahweh," but "huios theou" which can mean only "Son of Elohim." It must not be argued, as some modern men do, that Jesus thus disclaims his own deity. He does nothing of the kind. He is simply stopping the mouths of the rabbis from the charge of blasphemy and he does it effectually. The sentence is quite involved, but can be cleared up. To whom the word of God came (pros hous ho logos tou theou egeneto). The relative points to ekeinous, before. These judges had no other claim to the term theoi (elohim). And the scripture cannot be broken (kai ou dunatai luthênai hê graphê). A parenthesis that drives home the pertinency of the appeal, one that the Pharisees had to accept. Luthênai is first aorist passive infinitive of luô, to loosen, to break.

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver,


Could you please consider the following Scriptures which I consider foundation verses when discussing who is the Lord Jesus Christ. I will briefly state some aspects that I draw from these verses, and these in my mind must first be considered before such themes as Eternal Life are considered.

Psalm 8:4-6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Psalm 80:17 (KJV): Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.
The Psalmist uses the creation language of Genesis 1-3 to speak of the creation of a new man who would fulfil the role of Adam who failed. He was to be a Son of Man (Adam) but specially strengthened by God, so that all the earth will become subject under him.

Luke 1:30-35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Here is revealed the conception and birth process of the Lord Jesus Christ. God the Father was the father of Jesus, Mary in the line of King David was the mother, and the conception was by means of the power of God, the Holy Spirit. I cannot accept that Jesus existed before he was conceived and born.

Luke 2:40 (KJV): And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Luke 2:52 (KJV): And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Jesus underwent a learning process instructed by Mary and Joseph, and especially by God His Father. Therefore Jesus was not a continuation of a pre-existent being, otherwise he would already have full knowledge.

The above is the basis which I commence to try to understand some of the more difficult passages that you present. I hope you will be patient with me.

Kind regards
Trevor

The passages of scripture you present are speaking of the human creation aspect of Messiah. This is why Jesus is called the son of man. Jesus is also called the Son of God. He is both fully man and fully God. A mystery indeed, but that is our God, full of mystery, we just accept what He says He is.

Jesus chose to become a man and limit His knowledge to that which the Father revealed unto Him. This is the ultimate act of faith and submission, totally trusting the Father to guide Him and care for Him.

I believe what is hanging you up in accepting that Jesus is Eternal God is that you only are seeing Jesus' created human side. The scriptures reveal throughout the two fold nature of the Messiah, son of man and Son of God.

The Jews could not see this either, and this is why they wanted Him killed, for making Himself equal with God. They couldn't understand how a man could be God, or as Jesus put it, the Son of God.

 

[percho]

I would like to know if this promise; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2 was made for Adam, the first to sin and all who have come after him have sinned, except one OR was it made for; The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. From Rev. 13:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. The one who did not sin yet died?????

 

[Yeshua1]

The jews knew very well that jesus claimed to be the SAME Yahweh who spoke to Moses, and was in their wilderness with them!

John used his "I Am" sayings to connect for us that Jesus is equal to, same as Yahweh of the OT!

If you fail to honor the Son JUST as you do the father, you have neither of them!

 

[Yeshua1]

The passages of scripture you present are speaking of the human creation aspect of Messiah. This is why Jesus is called the son of man. Jesus is also called the Son of God. He is both fully man and fully God. A mystery indeed, but that is our God, full of mystery, we just accept what He says He is.

Jesus chose to become a man and limit His knowledge to that which the Father revealed unto Him. This is the ultimate act of faith and submission, totally trusting the Father to guide Him and care for Him.

I believe what is hanging you up in accepting that Jesus is Eternal God is that you only are seeing Jesus' created human side. The scriptures reveal throughout the two fold nature of the Messiah, son of man and Son of God.

The Jews could not see this either, and this is why they wanted Him killed, for making Himself equal with God. They couldn't understand how a man could be God, or as Jesus put it, the Son of God.

He errs because he cannot see that in the Incarnation God literally became fully human, accepted all the limitations that came with being in the form of man, except that He had no sin nature, just a sinless human one, along with that of deity!