Trinity

[TrevorL]

Greetings again percho,

In an earlier post, it was suggested that the Name of God is in the future tense, “I will be that (or what) I will be”. This is in the first person. The third person of this Name is Yahweh, and this then represents “He who will be”. When revealed to Moses this represented future activity and this was associated with God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. When Israel was delivered out of Egypt this particular activity had been accomplished, and they sang the Song of Moses. Part of this Song has the following phrase:
Exodus 15:2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation. … the LORD is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

But this was not the ultimate completion of the Yahweh Name. God’s purpose with the earth was not complete with the salvation of Israel out of Egypt. God’s purpose was declared in the following, but sadly this was spoken at a time when the very generation that had been born through God’s deliverance failed.
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

The above raises the question of how and when will the earth be filled with the glory of God. One indication is found when the Psalmist uses the same words as Moses’ Song to speak of another deliverance:
Psalm 118:14-25 (KJV): 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

The above is quoted at length to show that there was to be a greater salvation in fulfillment of the Yahweh Name. It is evident from the context that this salvation is by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the man of God’s right hand, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The greater deliverance is revealed even in the conception and birth of the child:
Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The meaning of the name Jesus is revealed: “for he shall save his people from their sins”. Was Jesus to be an independent Saviour? No, the name Jesus incorporates the Yahweh Name, Je-sous, Jo-shua, or Yah-oshea. He was to be Yahweh’s Salvation. Here then is the extension or fulfillment of the Yahweh Name, Yahweh was to be, to become. He was to “become salvation” Exodus 15:2, in and through Jesus, the Son of God. Yahweh is the Saviour, Jesus is the Saviour. In other words Yahweh, God the Father is the Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yahweh has become salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

As stated in my post to DHK I have fallen way behind in responding to the various posts. Mainly 12strings has posted some challenging verses in his “Evidence #1-5”, and although I have considered in my mind some response to these I have not had time to decide on what to write to give a proper answer. I would like to briefly respond to your latest while I am on line.

What am I to "carefully reconsider" at my "peril"?

Are you suggesting that my worshipping of Jesus Christ as God will condemn me?

No hard feelings meant. You suggested that my view was almost tantamount to false worship of Jesus. I was also suggesting that I consider that Philippians 2 is not correctly understood by Trinitarians. An echo of how Trinitarians regard this passage is reflected in Yeshua1’s recent post.

Do you understand that "bowing the knee" to Jesus Christ is not salvation? Ye must be born of God. I have asked you a few times now and I have not been given an answer; Do you understand what born-again means?

Perhaps like many Bible subjects I may have a different view of what constitutes being born-again. Does your view of being born-again include water baptism in response to a belief of the gospel? I suggest that the following believers were born-again. Do you agree?
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

No hard feelings meant. You suggested that my view was almost tantamount to false worship of Jesus. I was also suggesting that I consider that Philippians 2 is not correctly understood by Trinitarians. An echo of how Trinitarians regard this passage is reflected in Yeshua1’s recent post.

Kind regards
Trevor

That's fine, but you did not answer my question. Are you suggesting that my worship of Jesus Christ as God will condemn me?

Perhaps like many Bible subjects I may have a different view of what constitutes being born-again. Does your view of being born-again include water baptism in response to a belief of the gospel? I suggest that the following believers were born-again. Do you agree?
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

According to the scriptures, water baptism does not cause a person to be born of God. They believed (born then of God if proved out to be true converts) and then they made public profession through water baptism as per the example of Jesus Christ.

One is born of God when the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit of God (Romans 8, John 4, John 15) and the Father God (John 14) enters IN a person causing, through God alone (John 1), a New Creation (2Cor5). Two become one, God and God's child. (Scripture references by no means exhaustive).

Do you understand that born of God is Christ in you?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings 12strings,

Sorry for the delay in responding to your three posts Evidence #1-5. The following is not complete either. I will select first the one that is partly separate from the others.

Evidence #4:

Is. 9:6 - For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


It sound's like this child to be born is Mighty God, Everlasting Father...Not just a man.

A brief answer only to this and if you are not satisfied I will expand or respond to any objection. One of the problems that a Trinitarian would face here is if Jesus is God the Son why is he called here “everlasting Father”? I thought that the Father and the Son were in some way distinct.

Taking the term “Mighty God” first this can be translated Strong Warrior or Champion. Jesus in Hebrews 2 is called the captain of our salvation, and in the Age to Come he is to conquer the world, putting down all rule, power and authority 1 Corinthians 15:24.

The phrase “Everlasting Father” is not from eternity to eternity, but speaks of not ending, similar idea to the phrases in Daniel 2:44:
Daniel 2:44 (KJV): And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
This does not exclude a starting point, rather it necessitates it. Jesus is also the spiritual father of all the believers.

Evidence #2:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This sounds like these Verses are describing:
1. Someone who is somehow distinct from God the Father.
2. An eternally-existing Deity who created the world, and sustains it by omnipotent power.

I have decided for the moment to deal with Evidence #2. I do not equate the “Word” in John 1:1 as a being separate from God the Father. I believe the “Word” is a personification of a characteristic of God the Father, and this is separated here so that when we come to John 1:14 we can understand how this characteristic is continued in the birth and development of Jesus, the Son of God. The Father still retains the characteristic of the Word, both spoken and the thought or reason behind the spoken word.

Yes, the world was made by the spoken word of God as Genesis 1 clearly states:
Genesis 1:3 (KJV): And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator as Psalm 8 clearly states:
Psalm 8:1-6 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Jesus summarises Psalm 8, but addresses Yahweh the Lord of heaven and earth as Father, showing that the Father is the Creator.
Matthew 11:25-27 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
And notice that God the Father who is Lord of heaven and earth has now made Jesus the Lord over all things.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

There is a range of views amongst Trinitarians, but some feel challenged by the lack of evidence in the OT to support their view. They seek some passage to support their view that “God is a multi-Personal God” or some similar expression. Some use Genesis 1:26-27 for this purpose. I would like to briefly comment on this passage in anticipation, and at the same time attempt to clarify the meaning of the word Elohim as used in this passage.
Genesis 1:26-27 (KJV): 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Some Trinitarians point to the fact that v26 speaks in the plural, while v27 speaks in the singular. My understanding of this is that God the Father, the Lord of Heaven and Earth, the Creator, invites the participation of the angels in the creation of man after God’s and the angel’s image and likeness. Although the angels participate, v27 says that it is God Himself that has created man, because it is by His wisdom, power and initiative man has been created. We use an expression that a particular architect built an important building, but this in effect summarises the whole process with many designers and detailers and important workers and administrators contributing to the final result.

David comments and interprets the creation record in the following, and this shows that the angels were involved in the creation of man.
Psalm 8:4-6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
The phrase a little lower than the angels interprets correctly Genesis 1:26. Man was made after the image and likeness of God and the angels, and hence lower than the angels. It will only be after man’s probation and exaltation that man will be made equal to the angels. Jesus on the other hand has been exalted above the angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

That's fine, but you did not answer my question. Are you suggesting that my worship of Jesus Christ as God will condemn me?

This is entirely your responsibility and God’s decision how He will treat all worshippers. I would encourage all of us in the years to come to allow the Word of God to gradually transform our thinking as His Ways and His Thoughts are Higher than our ways and thoughts.

According to the scriptures, water baptism does not cause a person to be born of God. They believed (born then of God if proved out to be true converts) and then they made public profession through water baptism as per the example of Jesus Christ.

One is born of God when the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit of God (Romans 8, John 4, John 15) and the Father God (John 14) enters IN a person causing, through God alone (John 1), a New Creation (2Cor5). Two become one, God and God's child. (Scripture references by no means exhaustive).

Do you understand that born of God is Christ in you?

I will consider this. My only comment on this is that when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus he seemed to define being born again as being born of water and the spirit John 3:5.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver, This is entirely your responsibility and God’s decision how He will treat all worshippers.


Kind regards
Trevor

Then you are saying you have no idea what one must do to be saved. One must be born again. If one has no understanding of what being born of the Spirit means, ie Nicodemus, then one has not experienced the power of God through recreation.

Does worshipping Jesus as God condemn one? The scripture declares "ye shall have no other gods before me" saith the Lord. What of all of these Christians who are worshipping Jesus as God? What say you?

I will consider this. My only comment on this is that when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus he seemed to define being born again as being born of water and the spirit John 3:5.

Do you believe that getting wet in the water is the formula Almighty God has come up with to redeem a lost sinner?

The water represents the washing by the word of God. We use scripture to interpret scripture.

"That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word," (Eph 5:26)

 

[percho]

Then you are saying you have no idea what one must do to be saved. One must be born again. If one has no understanding of what being born of the Spirit means, ie Nicodemus, then one has not experienced the power of God through recreation.

Does worshipping Jesus as God condemn one? The scripture declares "ye shall have no other gods before me" saith the Lord. What of all of these Christians who are worshipping Jesus as God? What say you?



Do you believe that getting wet in the water is the formula Almighty God has come up with to redeem a lost sinner?

The water represents the washing by the word of God. We use scripture to interpret scripture.

"That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word," (Eph 5:26)

Steaver I would like to examine Eph. 5:26 with you as to understanding.

With the washing of water by the word, appears to me to be quite ambiguous, therefore lets start if you will with more clear verses concerning the church.

Exactly how is the church cleansed? I would say by the blood of Jesus. The blood also meaning by the death of Christ.
Exactly how is the church sanctified? I would say be the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So how does the washing of water by the word teach us about blood/death for cleansing and being given the Holy Spirit to set us apart?

My thoughts. By the word = Prophesy. Prophesy of the washing of water.

The water baptism of Jesus was a prophesy of this baptism spoken of by Jesus here; But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Luke 12:50 and here; Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? Matt. 20:22

The cup being the cup of suffering unto death, the shedding of blood.

The baptism.


Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. Mark 1:9 =the death, the shedding of the blood of Jesus. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke 23:46

Verse 10: And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: = The resurrection to life of Jesus. being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit,

And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mark 1:11 = And declared the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Now let me ask; Can the blood of Jesus, his death, alone cleanse us from our sin?
1 Cor. 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins.
If there had been no resurrection of Jesus you would still be in your sin. For the blood to cleanse, required life again. For the blood to cleanse required, washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

Then you are saying you have no idea what one must do to be saved. One must be born again. If one has no understanding of what being born of the Spirit means, ie Nicodemus, then one has not experienced the power of God through recreation.

I gave the example of the Samaritans and what happened with them.
Acts 8:5 (KJV): Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Acts 8:12 (KJV): But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Philip preached Christ to them v5, and the Samaritans believed what he preached. Please note in v5 it says that he preached Christ, while this is equated in v12 as the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ. Here then is an account of what one must do to be saved. In other words we must believe the gospel that was preached by the Apostles and Philip. In other words salvation is by faith, that is belief of the Apostolic gospel. The response of this type of faith leads to baptism as the example of the Samaritans testifies.

Does worshipping Jesus as God condemn one? The scripture declares "ye shall have no other gods before me" saith the Lord. What of all of these Christians who are worshipping Jesus as God? What say you?

You seem to worship the One God, claiming that this One God is The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, sometimes called the Trinity. I claim that the One God is The Father, and that Jesus is The Son of God. I worship the One God The Father, and I also worship the One God The Father through the mediation and the representation of His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ. As far as condemnation, I refer you to the greatest example who witnessed to the truth of all things:
John 12:46-50 (KJV): 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
People are responsible to judgement if they have been fully witnessed to by the Lord Jesus Christ, and at the judgement Christ’s words will judge them for good or rejection. Most people live in some degrees of ignorance and God will take this into account. My brief comments do not make people responsible to judgement or condemnation, but they are simply an expression of how I understand this particular Bible subject.

Do you believe that getting wet in the water is the formula Almighty God has come up with to redeem a lost sinner?

The water represents the washing by the word of God. We use scripture to interpret scripture.

"That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word," (Eph 5:26)

Romans 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Here is another example of our different beliefs. I believe that baptism is the appointed means of identifying with the death and resurrection of Jesus as Paul explains above. Those who properly understand and with a warm affectionate belief of the representative nature of the death and resurrection of Christ will be motivated to be identified with his death and resurrection following the example of the early believers. You have not really responded to John 3:5 where part of being born again is defined as being born of water. I also have an understanding of being born of the spirit, but let us clear up this first. Yes I certainly believe in using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver, I gave the example of the Samaritans and what happened with them.
Acts 8:5 (KJV): Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Acts 8:12 (KJV): But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Philip preached Christ to them v5, and the Samaritans believed what he preached. Please note in v5 it says that he preached Christ, while this is equated in v12 as the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ. Here then is an account of what one must do to be saved. In other words we must believe the gospel that was preached by the Apostles and Philip. In other words salvation is by faith, that is belief of the Apostolic gospel. The response of this type of faith leads to baptism as the example of the Samaritans testifies.

You may not be understanding my question, yes, salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. Let me ask this another way; What takes place in the believer when he is born-again?

You seem to worship the One God,

Not sure what you mean, I haven't been unclear here, I have said I worship Jesus Christ as God. I am not ignorant of the scriptures, I have read them many, many times over. The Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit that Jesus is God. What else can I say?

Here is another example of our different beliefs. I believe that baptism is the appointed means of identifying with the death and resurrection of Jesus as Paul explains above. Those who properly understand and with a warm affectionate belief of the representative nature of the death and resurrection of Christ will be motivated to be identified with his death and resurrection following the example of the early believers. You have not really responded to John 3:5 where part of being born again is defined as being born of water. I also have an understanding of being born of the spirit, but let us clear up this first. Yes I certainly believe in using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Kind regards
Trevor

Just what Jesus meant by being born of water has been debated for centuries. We know from scripture that salvation is by grace through faith and this not of yourselves, not by works, lest any man should boast. We know that there are probably millions of believers who have been saved over the centuries who had no opportunity for a baptism, or were saved in a fox hole or on a death bed or a cross. So you would have a difficult time trying to make baptism a vehicle for justification. So I don't think you can clear this up. I already know all the verses you will put forth to support your pov, I have studied the scriptures for 15 years now, and all things considered, your pov on baptism is not an air tight argument. All scriptures and all applications to real life must be considered.

 

[TrevorL]

I would like to add a few more aspects to show that the Scriptures teach that there is One God the Father and that Jesus is the Son of God. The teaching of the OT proclaims that there is one God, and Jesus quotes and endorses this teaching:
Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV): Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Mark 12:28-30 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
It is obvious from this that Jesus is not including himself when he is talking about the One God. Jesus is here talking about the one God, the Father.

The following needs little comment except to say that there is no evidence that the Apostle Peter taught the Trinity in his speech as recorded in Acts 2:
Acts 2:22 (KJV): Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:36 (KJV): Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Jesus during his ministry was limited in knowledge as stated in the following:
Mark 13:32 (KJV): But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Even after his resurrection and ascension to the right hand of the Father he needed to receive from God the Book of Revelation. If Jesus was God himself, then after his resurrection he would not have been limited in knowledge:
Revelation 1:1 (KJV): The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The following is instructive on two counts. Firstly it speaks of God as separate from Jesus, the Son. It is God who has put all things under Jesus. Secondly at the end of the 1000-year reign of Christ, Jesus will become subject under God, not equal
1 Corinthians 15:27-28 (KJV): 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The power that Jesus, the Son of God now exercises was given to him by God the Father:
Matthew 11:25-27 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Matthew 28:18 (KJV): And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
John 3:34-35 (KJV): 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

In an earlier Post I mentioned that the Scriptures uses the word “God” for the judges who represented God and made judgements on His behalf. In the OT this word is Elohim. This same word is used for the Angels in their role of representing God. The word Elohim is usually translated God, but on numerous occasions it is evident that the word Elohim also includes the angels.
Genesis 17:1,22 (KJV): 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
In the above God the Father did not Himself appear to Abraham, but an angel who represented Yahweh. Hence in v22 when it says that God went up from Abraham, it was an angel that departed from Abraham.

Exodus 3:2-6 (KJV): 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Here it specifically says that it was an angel that appeared to Moses, but then it uses the word God in an inclusive sense, or in a representative sense, “God called”, “I am the God of thy father”, and Moses “was afraid to look upon God”, as underlined above.

It is also interesting to see the difficulty that translators had with the word Elohim in the following passage:
Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Psalm 8:5 (ASV): For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor.

The writer to the Hebrews confirms that angels are meant in Psalm 8:5, showing that the term “Elohim” in some contexts includes the angels.
Hebrews 2:5-7 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

You may not be understanding my question, yes, salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. Let me ask this another way; What takes place in the believer when he is born-again?

When a person heartily believes the gospel and repents and is baptised then his life is then directed by God in a new direction. Perhaps the parable of the sower illustrates this:
Matthew 13:23 (KJV): But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Luke 8:15 (KJV): But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Not sure what you mean, I haven't been unclear here, I have said I worship Jesus Christ as God. I am not ignorant of the scriptures, I have read them many, many times over. The Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit that Jesus is God. What else can I say?

You believe that Jesus is God. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. I really think that in actual fact you believe in Three Gods.

Just what Jesus meant by being born of water has been debated for centuries. We know from scripture that salvation is by grace through faith and this not of yourselves, not by works, lest any man should boast. We know that there are probably millions of believers who have been saved over the centuries who had no opportunity for a baptism, or were saved in a fox hole or on a death bed or a cross. So you would have a difficult time trying to make baptism a vehicle for justification. So I don't think you can clear this up. I already know all the verses you will put forth to support your pov, I have studied the scriptures for 15 years now, and all things considered, your pov on baptism is not an air tight argument. All scriptures and all applications to real life must be considered.

It is interesting that a group of believers called Baptists in actual fact discount the Biblical teaching and NT example of baptism. This is like calling a ship The Titanic. Perhaps the best real life application is the thief on the cross, but he actually was crucified with Christ in the full meaning of the phrase. To argue from the exception in the manner that you are doing is really denying the Scriptural teaching. The Pharisees also must have had their reasons, but one of the problems was that John the Baptist asked them to repent and they did not see the need because they considered themselves the chosen ones.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver,
When a person heartily believes the gospel and repents and is baptised then his life is then directed by God in a new direction. Perhaps the parable of the sower illustrates this:
Matthew 13:23 (KJV): But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Luke 8:15 (KJV): But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

I have repeatedly asked you to describe what takes place IN a person when they have been born of God. It seems you have no answer for this and just keep pointing out that if man does this or does that they are then saved. Either you do not understand my question or you have no idea what being born of God is.

You believe that Jesus is God. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. I really think that in actual fact you believe in Three Gods.

As this conversation has progressed, you are sounding very much like the Pharisees of Jesus' day. 1) They had no idea what being born-again meant. 2) They wanted Jesus killed because He was claiming to be equal with God.

Why do you think the Jews went out of their way to actually hunt down and kill Christians even after Jesus' crucifixion? Just because they followed a dead man? No, they wanted them killed because they followed Jesus as God which was blasphemy to their ears and they thought they were doing God justice by killing Christians.

It is interesting that a group of believers called Baptists in actual fact discount the Biblical teaching and NT example of baptism.

They do no such thing. They understand how one is born-again, how is it that you do not understand what happens IN a person when they are born of God?

Perhaps the best real life application is the thief on the cross, but he actually was crucified with Christ in the full meaning of the phrase.

As are all of God's born-again believers, and it has nothing to do with water baptism, which is only a confession of what has been done IN the believer. Which again, you have no understanding of.

To argue from the exception in the manner that you are doing is really denying the Scriptural teaching. The Pharisees also must have had their reasons, but one of the problems was that John the Baptist asked them to repent and they did not see the need because they considered themselves the chosen ones.

Kind regards
Trevor

John's baptism did not bring regeneration (born-again). They could have dipped in the water all day long and they would still have been unborn of God. (Acts 19) These people were baptised twice, and take clear note that they were already believers for some while before being baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[12strings]

A brief answer only to this and if you are not satisfied I will expand or respond to any objection. One of the problems that a Trinitarian would face here is if Jesus is God the Son why is he called here “everlasting Father”? I thought that the Father and the Son were in some way distinct.

Taking the term “Mighty God” first this can be translated Strong Warrior or Champion. Jesus in Hebrews 2 is called the captain of our salvation, and in the Age to Come he is to conquer the world, putting down all rule, power and authority 1 Corinthians 15:24.

I believe the literal Hebrew here is simply "el gibbowr" or, "God-mighty". The "EL" refers to God throughout the OT. It is generally followed, as here, by some descriptor that emphasizes a certain aspect of God's character.

Jesus is also the spiritual father of all the believers.

This is also how I would explain the "Father" part of this passage. Just as I am both a son and a Father... Jesus can be too.

I have decided for the moment to deal with Evidence #2. I do not equate the “Word” in John 1:1 as a being separate from God the Father. I believe the “Word” is a personification of a characteristic of God the Father, and this is separated here so that when we come to John 1:14 we can understand how this characteristic is continued in the birth and development of Jesus, the Son of God. The Father still retains the characteristic of the Word, both spoken and the thought or reason behind the spoken word.

Yes, the world was made by the spoken word of God as Genesis 1 clearly states:
Genesis 1:3 (KJV): And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator as Psalm 8 clearly states:
[/COLOR]

1. Yes, God's spoken word created the world, but in this passage the "WORD" is said to BE GOD. God's spoken word is nowhere else equated with God himself. Nearly all scholars understand this to be a reference to Jesus...Indicated by the following verses which say "14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

2. Even Excluding John 1, you still have Col 1 & Hebrews 1, which are clearly talking about Christ (colossians), and the "son" (Hebrews) as the one's through whom the world was created.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 12strings,

I believe the literal Hebrew here is simply "el gibbowr" or, "God-mighty". The "EL" refers to God throughout the OT. It is generally followed, as here, by some descriptor that emphasizes a certain aspect of God's character.

The word “El” although used mostly for God throughout the OT has the meaning of might or power and is so used in some contexts. The word “gibbowr” is more often translated warrior. I do not believe that this is referring to God, but Jesus in his future role, replacing for example the Angel who fought on behalf of Israel against Jericho.
Joshua 5:13-15 (KJV): 13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD’S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

This is also how I would explain the "Father" part of this passage. Just as I am both a son and a Father... Jesus can be too.

So I hope you agree that this is not God the Father. I would also suggest the following where Jesus is a spiritual father to the believers.
Hebrews 2:13 (KJV): And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
This may seem obscure, but it is quoting from Isaiah 8 where Isaiah and his two children are patterns of Jesus and his disciples.

1. Yes, God's spoken word created the world, but in this passage the "WORD" is said to BE GOD. God's spoken word is nowhere else equated with God himself. Nearly all scholars understand this to be a reference to Jesus...Indicated by the following verses which say "14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

My immediate comparison is with Wisdom in Proverbs 8, where wisdom is personified as a Woman who was with God in creation. There is also no evidence that Jesus preexisted in John 1 as the Word, it is the Word that preexisted. The following is some indication that the Word proceeds from the mouth of God, and accomplishes his purpose, and returns to Him as the resurrected and glorified Jesus.
Isaiah 55:10-11 (KJV): 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

2. Even Excluding John 1, you still have Col 1 & Hebrews 1, which are clearly talking about Christ (colossians), and the "son" (Hebrews) as the one's through whom the world was created.

I realise this is still outstanding. I briefly considered this but did not have enough time before coming online. My simplistic answer to Colossians 1 is that it is not talking about the natural creation, but the spiritual or new creation, of which Jesus is the firstborn having been raised to immortality.

Before coming online, I also reconsidered your earlier assessment that I disagreed with Trinitarian scholars for over 2000 years. I have some brief documentation that there was a gradual replacement of the OT or Jewish basis of the subject of God, with Greek philosophy, and this eventually became locked in with some of the creeds. I will quote this if you would like, but it is well known, even if it is not agreed with by those trying to support the Trinity at an earlier date.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

I have repeatedly asked you to describe what takes place IN a person when they have been born of God. It seems you have no answer for this and just keep pointing out that if man does this or does that they are then saved. Either you do not understand my question or you have no idea what being born of God is.

I am very familiar with what happened within me, but I am not sure if this is what you want to hear. I have pointed out the effect of belief, repentance and a new way of life motivated by faith in the Name of Jesus and the hope of the kingdom. I suggest this has been my experience, though through much weakness, failure and lapses over the years. I am not sure that I want to discuss this subject, but I really like discussing with my brethren and meditating on the sequence of Roman chapters 6, 7 and 8 and Romans 8:3 is one of my favourite verses. You hinted at a different experience to mine, even to the point of discounting the real need of baptism and you may deny the following, possibly even the need of a new way of life. So to reinforce my obsession with “doing” I will add a few more of my favourites:
Matthew 7:24-27 (KJV): 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Matthew 11:28-30 (KJV): 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

As this conversation has progressed, you are sounding very much like the Pharisees of Jesus' day. 1) They had no idea what being born-again meant. 2) They wanted Jesus killed because He was claiming to be equal with God.

Why do you think the Jews went out of their way to actually hunt down and kill Christians even after Jesus' crucifixion? Just because they followed a dead man? No, they wanted them killed because they followed Jesus as God which was blasphemy to their ears and they thought they were doing God justice by killing Christians.

They persecuted the followers of Jesus because the disciples claimed that Jesus was the Son of God, the true Messiah, and that God had raised him from the dead.

They do no such thing. They understand how one is born-again, how is it that you do not understand what happens IN a person when they are born of God?

As are all of God's born-again believers, and it has nothing to do with water baptism, which is only a confession of what has been done IN the believer. Which again, you have no understanding of.

Of the say 1000 people who go forward at a Billy Graham crusade, what is your estimate of how many of these are actually then and there born again?

John's baptism did not bring regeneration (born-again). They could have dipped in the water all day long and they would still have been unborn of God. (Acts 19) These people were baptised twice, and take clear note that they were already believers for some while before being baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

But John preached baptism for the remission of sins. This was not simply dipping. After the death and resurrection of Jesus believers were baptised into the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Luke 3:3 (KJV): And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver,
I am very familiar with what happened within me, but I am not sure if this is what you want to hear. I have pointed out the effect of belief, repentance and a new way of life motivated by faith in the Name of Jesus and the hope of the kingdom. I suggest this has been my experience, though through much weakness, failure and lapses over the years. I am not sure that I want to discuss this subject, but I really like discussing with my brethren and meditating on the sequence of Roman chapters 6, 7 and 8 and Romans 8:3 is one of my favourite verses. You hinted at a different experience to mine, even to the point of discounting the real need of baptism and you may deny the following, possibly even the need of a new way of life. So to reinforce my obsession with “doing” I will add a few more of my favourites:
Matthew 7:24-27 (KJV): 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Matthew 11:28-30 (KJV): 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I agree that the born on God believer will "DO" . That is not what i have been asking, for a person can "DO" many things Jesus said to "DO" and still be lost ( see Matthew 7 ) . The Jehovah Witnesses "DO" many things Jesus said to "DO" yet they are lost because they have not Jesus Christ IN them.

So let me say this as Paul did, examine yourself, know ye not that Jesus Christ is IN you? Do you KNOW Jesus Christ is IN you Trevor?

I will not bother responding to the rest of your post, for unless we can get past this being born of God issue nothing else will matter.

 

[awaken]

I have yet to see where anyone could truly explain the Godhead. The only way to understand spiritual matters is by comparing them to the natural world...and that does not do it justice.

There is one God, and His eternal breath is His Spirit, which is the breath of the holy place and manifest as the Spirit of God. God is both light and love, and in the beginning He separated the light and love into a manifestation called "the Word". We see both light and love of God revealed in Jesus-the living Word.

There are many mysteries concerning the Godhead and what we term the trinity that are challenging to explain with human intellect. I see the Scripture is clear in both Testaments that there is a manifestation of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[12strings]

Greetings again 12strings, The word “El” although used mostly for God throughout the OT has the meaning of might or power and is so used in some contexts. The word “gibbowr” is more often translated warrior. I do not believe that this is referring to God, but Jesus in his future role, replacing for example the Angel who fought on behalf of Israel against Jericho.

Joshua 5:13-15 (KJV): 13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD’S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

I fail to see the relevance of this passage... "EL" is not used to describe this warrior. BTW, you are also now claiming that your translation expertise goes beyond that of all the primary english translations of the last 500 years, that they all got it wrong, but you have the hebrew expertise to get it right.

So I hope you agree that this is not God the Father. I would also suggest the following where Jesus is a spiritual father to the believers.
Hebrews 2:13 (KJV): And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
This may seem obscure, but it is quoting from Isaiah 8 where Isaiah and his two children are patterns of Jesus and his disciples.

I don't deny that Jesus has a spiritual fatherly role for believers...Is. 6 clearly points to that. Which points to his divinity.

My immediate comparison is with Wisdom in Proverbs 8, where wisdom is personified as a Woman who was with God in creation. There is also no evidence that Jesus preexisted in John 1 as the Word, it is the Word that preexisted. The following is some indication that the Word proceeds from the mouth of God, and accomplishes his purpose, and returns to Him as the resurrected and glorified Jesus.
Isaiah 55:10-11 (KJV): 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

You keep using OT verses that don't prove your point. This verse says nothing about God's word returning as a ressurected Jesus. BTW, I thought you just said Jesus WAS NOT the word in John 1. Now you're saying he is?


I

realise this is still outstanding. I briefly considered this but did not have enough time before coming online. My simplistic answer to Colossians 1 is that it is not talking about the natural creation, but the spiritual or new creation, of which Jesus is the firstborn having been raised to immortality.

The text says:
For by him all things were created[past tense, all-inclusive], in heaven and on earth [earthly things...past tense remember], visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created [past tense] through him and for him. And he is before all things [before mary?....before Moses?], and in him all things hold together [who is the sustainer of all life? ...any 5 year-old or any christian who plainly reads their bible will tell you it's God...not some really strong man].(Colossians 1:16-17)

Before coming online, I also reconsidered your earlier assessment that I disagreed with Trinitarian scholars for over 2000 years. I have some brief documentation that there was a gradual replacement of the OT or Jewish basis of the subject of God, with Greek philosophy, and this eventually became locked in with some of the creeds. I will quote this if you would like, but it is well known, even if it is not agreed with by those trying to support the Trinity at an earlier date.

Well, it is quite obvious that there was a huge shift in the understanding of the Jewish Believers who accepted Christ. for 1500 years they had had the message of "ONE GOD" pounded into their heads, and after the exile, they finally got it...idolatry ended after that among Jews...so of all people on earth who would be least likely to accept that a man could be God, it would have been the Jews. But...it is what you see in the scriptural record, exemplified by Jesus' own half-brother, James:

James 1:1-7 (1) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (2) My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; (3) knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. (4) But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. (5) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord[/B].

If you will dispute this point, note that James clearly identifies Jesus as the Lord. Moreover, after suggesting that people can ask things from God, he immediately switches to the designation "Lord" in verse 7. James' interchangeable use of God and Lord demonstrates that he held Jesus to be divine.

James 2:1 -My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

This is clear Blasphemy for a Jew to call a man the "Lord of Glory"....unless that man is God.

Also, Jesus himself stated that a man cannot have two masters, he cannot serve both God and man...so the only way James could be a "doulos" (slave) of both God & Jesus would be if Jesus were not just a man, but God.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

The text says:
For by him all things were created[past tense, all-inclusive], in heaven and on earth [earthly things...past tense remember], visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created [past tense] through him and for him. And he is before all things [before mary?....before Moses?], and in him all things hold together [who is the sustainer of all life? ...any 5 year-old or any christian who plainly reads their bible will tell you it's God...not some really strong man].(Colossians 1:16-17)

Indeed. :thumbs:

Well, it is quite obvious that there was a huge shift in the understanding of the Jewish Believers who accepted Christ.

Excellent point.

for 1500 years they had had the message of "ONE GOD" pounded into their heads, and after the exile, they finally got it...idolatry ended after that among Jews...so of all people on earth who would be least likely to accept that a man could be God, it would have been the Jews. ...

Another good point--God had to pound monotheism into their heads first before He could give them further revelation that within this monotheism there was more than one divine Person. Yet, it was the monotheistic Jews first who ascribed Deity to Christ--not pagan Greeks.