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Trinity
- Thread starter steaver
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By the same token what does this say about God, man and Jesus.
For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Heb. 2:5
That for sure tells us that the world to come, whatever that means, will not be subject to angels, whatever that means.
We also know from the previous four verses all this is relative to great salvation, whatever that means.
The the question is asked:
What is man?
We are given a few details and the last thing said is that we do not yet see all things put under him, subject to him. MAN, Right? I assume this is all relative to the world to come that will not be subjected to the angels. right?
But we see Jesus.
Jesus the what?????
God the Son? The Son of Man? The Christ the Son of the living God born of woman?
Who?
Just how much divine nature will we have as the children of God being the children of the resurrection?
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TrevorL
Member
Greetings again steaver,
I was disappointed that you did not answer my Billy Graham question, because of my own experience. Perhaps you would help me understand this. Some 15-20 years ago I saw an advert by a local Baptist Church to attend a meeting where “The Second Coming of Christ” would be the subject. I arrived ten minutes early, but the meeting was in full swing with singing by the audience who were seated. There were extra chairs placed in the aisle, so I sat down. I did not know the hymns and no hymn book was offered or shared despite the couple next to me having one copy apiece. This went on for at least 45 minutes and then there was some individual singing and then some dialogue between this Church and an adjacent Church representatives, apologising to each other over some rift or disagreement, but now praising each other as they were almost reconciled. Then a bit more singing. Then an address by a fiery redheaded preacher, whose complexion got redder and redder as he spoke about how unless you repent you will burn in hell. At the end of his talk he called on anyone to come forward. Two responded, according to the couple next to me, “not her again”, and perhaps the other for the first time. Could I ask: Is this the normal method of being born again in the Baptist Church.
I left totally dissatisfied, as I did not hear what will really happen when Christ returns. I had some comfort in my long period of being seated higher than the normal chairs as I did like the violin and clarinet playing who were accompanying the piano.
Kind regards
Trevor
I believe that Jesus Christ is in me, but I am not sure if I believe the same as you on this. Mainly I believe it is the word of faith of the gospel that resides in believers, and this transforms the heart and the mind and motivates them into a spiritual way of life. No, I do not believe the Holy Spirit comes into the mind and takes over. As my ex-Baptist now Pentecostal friend says, He will know what to do because he is directed by the Holy Spirit, and he also believes in OSAS because of this Holy Spirit indwelling. His classic statement: "Is a person more powerful than the Holy Spirit" indicating that there was no real chance of failing or falling away. Is this how you understand being born again?
I was disappointed that you did not answer my Billy Graham question, because of my own experience. Perhaps you would help me understand this. Some 15-20 years ago I saw an advert by a local Baptist Church to attend a meeting where “The Second Coming of Christ” would be the subject. I arrived ten minutes early, but the meeting was in full swing with singing by the audience who were seated. There were extra chairs placed in the aisle, so I sat down. I did not know the hymns and no hymn book was offered or shared despite the couple next to me having one copy apiece. This went on for at least 45 minutes and then there was some individual singing and then some dialogue between this Church and an adjacent Church representatives, apologising to each other over some rift or disagreement, but now praising each other as they were almost reconciled. Then a bit more singing. Then an address by a fiery redheaded preacher, whose complexion got redder and redder as he spoke about how unless you repent you will burn in hell. At the end of his talk he called on anyone to come forward. Two responded, according to the couple next to me, “not her again”, and perhaps the other for the first time. Could I ask: Is this the normal method of being born again in the Baptist Church.
I left totally dissatisfied, as I did not hear what will really happen when Christ returns. I had some comfort in my long period of being seated higher than the normal chairs as I did like the violin and clarinet playing who were accompanying the piano.
Kind regards
Trevor
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TrevorL
Member
Greetings again 12strings,
Kind regards
Trevor
I do not have Hebrew expertise, but have listened and learned, and know how to use some Hebrew reference material. It is the Hebrew word gibbor S# H1368 that is often translated warrior or champion. El is the word often translated God, but in specific contexts where His Power or Strength is spoken of. The word El is used simply for power and strength in other contexts, not directly speaking about God. If you demand then that El must be translated God, then Moffatt takes up the idea of champion and translates in my copy “a divine hero”. I can almost accept this as long as the Divinity is not part of the Trinity, as Jesus is the Son of God.
Isaiah 8 I assume you meant as previously quoted. Yes Jesus is The Son of God.
The Word was made flesh in John 1:14. Jesus is this word. The word in John 1:1 is an attribute of God the Father personified, just as Wisdom, a woman is personified in Proverbs 8. I like Isaiah 55 as it almost gives the word that proceeds from God's mouth a personification. How can a word return to God? It is what the word accomplishes that returns to God. God's words are always effectual, while most of men's words fail.
I spent some time on this passage, reading FF Bruce’s book on Paul and some of my own literature. I have not got a detailed answer except to say that I believe that Jesus is the centre of the New Creation, and all things pertaining to the Old Creation were made with Jesus and his future role of King of the whole creation in view. I have attempted to show from Genesis 1:26-27 and Psalm 8 that God the Father is the Creator. This is my foundation belief, and I have yet to come fully to grips with the language and meaning of Colossians 1:16-17. I have three references in my resources that give an explanation, but I will not quote these as I am not willing to simply parrot another persons’ conclusions. I take comfort that there is a solution in line with my understanding of Psalm 8, but in the mean time I will allow you to gloat.
I believe that Jesus has been glorified and is seated at the right hand of God. You may not allow this thought of Jesus being worshipped, the Lord of glory and other terms, but this is my understanding of his present position in glory.
Kind regards
Trevor
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Then your conclusion is false.
This is not up for debate. Paul was very clear, "examine yourselves, know ye not how that Jesus Christ is in you?"
Paul did not say "word of faith of the gospel" , Paul said "Jesus Christ", a Person.
This is very important Trevor, if you do not know that the person of Jesus Christ is in you, then you need to pause and search your heart. Paul says that if Jesus Christ is not in a person, then they are reprobate. Reprobate means "hopelessly sinful-depraved. Are unable to judge, they have not the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ (Holy Spirit) and cannot descern the things of God.
Being born-again is receiving the Person of Jesus Christ IN you! This is fundamental to being a true Christian. No Jesus Christ in you, no born-again, no heaven, only condemnation.
This is serious Trevor, I am trying to warn you that whoever has taught you this false teaching concerning Jesus Christ is deceived and has deceived you. God has given us an example through Thomas' confession of how one must address Jesus Christ through faith, "my Lord and my God".
Why do you insist on twisting all of these scriptures to suit a false idea? Who has bewitched you?
Read this carefully;
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him]. " (2Cor11)
And what would this experience have to do with you rejecting the scriptures that Jesus Christ is God? Just because you didn't like this particular church?
The scriptures say repent of your unbelief and believe the Gospel. If you have been fed a perverted gospel and now you embrace it and teach it, you walk in darkness. What possibly can you gain by doing this? What is in it for you?
If you are on this board to convince others of a perverted gospel you will not be here long. I pray you will take my exhortations to repent and believe for your eternal destiney is at stake here.
It is one thing to not understand how One God can be a Godhead of three distinct persons. But it is quite another thing to teach Jesus is not God, which is a false gospel and a false teaching. It will not be allowed I'm sure. Please consider the path you are chosing to follow.
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death." (Pro14:12)
I do not wish to see you banned my friend, I pray to see you in the Kingdom of God!
steaver
A couple of simple questions.
In the concept of, "the Trinity."
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:1,2
I can understand those two verses very clearly in the concept of God begetting in the woman a man child, his Son, the very Son of the living God.
I can understand the Father giving his Son all that he has and when he does that the Son becomes the inheritor of everything that is.
In the concept of the Trinity just how does that take place?
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; Romans 8:17 first part
Is that the same inheritance spoken of in Hebrews 1:2? Just when or is it not at an exact moment does/did Christ become the inheritor rather than the heir?
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
What does that mean from a Trinitarian point of view? What exactly took place to being that about?
What about the first part of that verse? Being made so much better than the angels. When did that take place? Surely God the Son from eternity and being God the Son would be impossible to be anything but better than the angels at any time, would he not?
Well maybe that is one of those things he self emptied. Pick and choose, what else did he self empty?
Four simple verses.
OR Did not to mean to leave you out. Wade in.
A couple of simple questions.
In the concept of, "the Trinity."
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:1,2
I can understand those two verses very clearly in the concept of God begetting in the woman a man child, his Son, the very Son of the living God.
I can understand the Father giving his Son all that he has and when he does that the Son becomes the inheritor of everything that is.
In the concept of the Trinity just how does that take place?
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; Romans 8:17 first part
Is that the same inheritance spoken of in Hebrews 1:2? Just when or is it not at an exact moment does/did Christ become the inheritor rather than the heir?
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
What does that mean from a Trinitarian point of view? What exactly took place to being that about?
What about the first part of that verse? Being made so much better than the angels. When did that take place? Surely God the Son from eternity and being God the Son would be impossible to be anything but better than the angels at any time, would he not?
Well maybe that is one of those things he self emptied. Pick and choose, what else did he self empty?
Four simple verses.
OR Did not to mean to leave you out. Wade in.
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It takes place just as the scripture declares it takes place. This is God's plan. This is God's plan of salvation and this is God's plan to teach us how love works. This is all about relationships. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost reveal to us a perfect relationship. How would we understand what true love is without this Father/Son relationship displayed for us by God Himself?
I would say it is the same.
I'm not sure without taking some time to dig into it just when the inheritance takes place, is it a progression as people are saved, is it at His seconding coming, is it after the thousand year riegn of Christ? Not sure.
"Being made" indicates that the incarnation of Christ is in view here. "By inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they" is defined as follows; "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom."
Underlined are two declared facts that Jesus is Deity. Only God is to be worshipped and the other just simply speaks for itself, the Son is God.
TrevorL
Member
Greetings again 12strings,
I spent some time transcribing part of a talk by one of the brethren in my fellowship. He is far more experienced in discussing the subject of the Trinity and comparing this with the way our fellowship understand the subject of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. I have yet to fully digest and prove this to myself as mentioned in my previous post to you. I hope you will take this as an objective reference to be considered and compared to what you have presented, and I will do the same. With his talk he presented 3 slides on Colossians 1 and these are added first. He either reads or alludes to these in his talk, and I have tried to indicate this by a comment in [square brackets].
Trevor
I spent some time transcribing part of a talk by one of the brethren in my fellowship. He is far more experienced in discussing the subject of the Trinity and comparing this with the way our fellowship understand the subject of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. I have yet to fully digest and prove this to myself as mentioned in my previous post to you. I hope you will take this as an objective reference to be considered and compared to what you have presented, and I will do the same. With his talk he presented 3 slides on Colossians 1 and these are added first. He either reads or alludes to these in his talk, and I have tried to indicate this by a comment in [square brackets].
Kind regards
Trevor
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TrevorL
Member
Greetings again steaver and Greetings OldRegular,
Kind regards
Trevor
My aim is to set forth the subject of the gospel of the Name of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God, and those who read my poor attempt at explaining such a grand and important subject can either accept or reject what I have written. We have had a reasonable discussion on these matters and we disagree. I am disappointed but can accept this. I think my participation in this thread has run its course and I appreciate the time you have spent and the patience you have shown.
I appreciate the comment.
Kind regards
Trevor
TrevorL
Member
Greetings again steaver,
Over dinner I briefly discussed with my wife a few of the things that you had stated in your last post, especially about your statement that Christ must be literally in us. She suggested that I quote the following passage with emphasis upon the words underlined and especially the portion in bold "by faith". They are words that I also should carefully consider. I will not make an additional comment, but leave you to consider this. Perhaps you know this passage well:
Ephesians 3:14-21 (KJV): 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Kind regards
Trevor
Over dinner I briefly discussed with my wife a few of the things that you had stated in your last post, especially about your statement that Christ must be literally in us. She suggested that I quote the following passage with emphasis upon the words underlined and especially the portion in bold "by faith". They are words that I also should carefully consider. I will not make an additional comment, but leave you to consider this. Perhaps you know this passage well:
Ephesians 3:14-21 (KJV): 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Kind regards
Trevor
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What you are "setting forth" is a false gospel. You have been deceived. If Christ is not in you, you cannot enter heaven. He who has the Son has life, he who does not have the Son does not have life. I have exhorted you to repent and believe.
I have witnessed to many JW's and I ask them, Is the Spirit of Jesus Christ in you? They always say no, I show them the scriptures, they pull out their rewrite version and I stop them right there. I tell them if they have to rewrite what has been said then they cannot ever understand the gospel and be saved. There is One gospel. Is it the JW's version from a book they wrote about 60 years ago, is it your version, which you have basically done the same thing by referencing Hebrew and Greek to change the message, which you then present here as the "true version".
You are being a false teacher Trevor, I pray against your teaching and I pray God will show you mercy and you can find the True Light of men IN CHrist, which is Christ IN you!
In seeing they will not see, in hearing they will not hear. I reference Hebrew and Greek all the time for fuller understanding of passages in scripture. I do not reference Hebrew and Greek to rewrite the obvious message of the text. You go to these sources to find another message, I assume a message that you have been indoctrinated to accept, maybe someone caused you to see another message through searching the Hebrew and Greek. This should have cause you to see a huge red flag in their teaching rather than in the plain and simple message put forth.
Thousands of Hebrew and Greek scholars have translated the scriptures into hundreds of English translations which declare and show the clear message that Jesus Christ is Deity. Even the Jehovah Witnesses had to write their own version so they could pervert the message and cause many more people to believe a lie. This is how satan works, subtlely deceiving a littile here and a little there, his goal is to keep you from the truth, deminish who Jesus Christ is and the power in His regenerating children unto Himself.
I pray you will shake off what you have been fed, and just simply read the truth for what it is. Call upon Jesus Christ to enter into you, giving you His very Spirit, and then you may say as Thomas did, "my Lord and my God".
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Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Well said.
Of course this verse also has to be considered: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, Heb 2:9
Was he lower than the angels prior to his inheritance and then by inheritance was,> Heb 1:4 made so much better than the angels, <as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Was this a very specific day? What day was this? Maybe the day of inheritance?
TrevorL
Member
Greetings again percho,
Although you addressed this to steaver, I would like to comment on his answer.
Kind regards
Trevor
I think you have made an interesting comment here. Hebrews 2:9 where it speaks of Jesus being made a little lower than the angels is based upon Paul’s quotation of Psalm 8. I have mentioned Psalm 8 earlier, but it is well worthwhile to try to understand this Psalm, not only because of the way it is quoted here in Hebrews 2, but it is one of the most quoted Psalms in the NT by both Jesus and the Apostles. I personally do not think that this Psalm fits in with Trinity theology. Jesus was made or created lower than the angels because he had to suffer death. The Angels are not subject to death. He was also initially lower than the Angels in understanding, wisdom etc because he as a child had to learn these things. He has now been exalted above the Angels, as he now is seated at the right hand of God the Father, while the Angels stand and minister for those who will be heirs of salvation.
Although you addressed this to steaver, I would like to comment on his answer.
I disagree with steaver here, as I believe that he was made better than the angels when he was raised from the dead and exalted to the right hand of God. “Being made” in Hebrews 1:2 is definitely not speaking of the incarnation as he was made lower than the angels. Also I do not believe in the incarnation, but that Jesus is the Son of God and Son of Man, with God as His Father in the conception birth process, and Mary his mother.
Kind regards
Trevor
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TrevorL
Member
Greetings again steaver,
As far as translations go, we must be discerning and careful not to accept every translation of a verse. There is some bias in all translations. I do not have a version or translation of my own, but use the KJV as my normal Bible and an interlinear KJV / RV for some of my Bible reading. This facilitates comparing an old translation to a more modern translation, and it is interesting some of the variations. I respect the OT portion of the RV more than some aspects of the RV NT.
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate your concern and the apparent feeling that you show in writing this. I do not want to go to heaven, but hope in the resurrection when Christ returns, and I seek to have a part in the Kingdom of God on earth. This is part of the gospel that I believe that you call “a false gospel”. I also encounter some JWs and discussed a few things with them when two ladies came to my door last Tuesday. Yes, I do not like some aspects of the NWT, but as I said to the JW ladies last Tuesday they seem to ignore the literal return of The Lord Jesus Christ as revealed in EVEN the NWT rendition of Acts 1:11, 3:19-21.
As far as translations go, we must be discerning and careful not to accept every translation of a verse. There is some bias in all translations. I do not have a version or translation of my own, but use the KJV as my normal Bible and an interlinear KJV / RV for some of my Bible reading. This facilitates comparing an old translation to a more modern translation, and it is interesting some of the variations. I respect the OT portion of the RV more than some aspects of the RV NT.
I have only mentioned Hebrew and Greek on a few occasions, and seeing you are proficient with using these resources you should check say Isaiah 9:6 whether “El Gibbor” should always be simply translated “Mighty God”. I am sure if you were the translator you would prefer this translation, but is it possible that you would be showing some bias?
Kind regards
Trevor
No, it is not the part that I am calling a false gospel. The false gospel you present is that Jesus Christ is not Deity.
You do not like some aspects? It is a trashing of the Word of God.
Why? You have decided that unless one has access to the original copies of the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts then one cannot know the Gospel of God. It is God who has provided His Word in English for the English speaking world to read and understand. How do I know this? It is evident by the millions of Christians that have been established through such English versions, which ALL, that have been sanctioned by Christians, read and teach Jesus is Deity. Knowing the Hebrew or Greek adds nothing, nor takes away, anything concerning the Deity of Christ. It is only a ploy for deceivers to do what their father does best.....deceive.
God is calling for you Trevor, even through this Baptist Board, trying to reach you, you may feel you are here trying to do God some sort of service, Paul once felt the same and found that he was kicking against the pricks. You are kicking against the pricks Trevor, you have embraced a doctrine which is way outside the doctrine of Jesus Christ and Christianity. Can't you see that? Do you really think all of us worshippers of Jesus Christ as God are all going to hell and you and a few others somehow seen some great truth through the Greek and Hebrew that makes Jesus just a good ole man and by believing this God is going to grant you eternal life?
How about you just let the good ole KJV let it say what God has to say to us English speaking folk? Why go out of your way to "fix" it up for God? It seems it has done a pretty good job for God for these some 500 years, no? Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, God was already with the translators of these great works that have led millions to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as Thomas had found? "My Lord and my God"
You would do very well Trevor to throw out your Hebrew and Greek books and this antichrist theology that someone has dumped upon you and start all over with just the KJB, then maybe advance to other ACCEPTED ENGLISH translations. Get established in Truth and then dig a bit deeper using some Hebrew and Greek.
Praying for that veil to be removed ............
raying:My point of view also.
The verse must be considered as always within the context of the passage and the context of the entire Scripture.
Verses 2:5-18 are addressing those such as yourselves who have great difficulty understanding how Jeus Christ can be both the Son of God (which means Deity) and the son of man (which means human) . The passages in Hebrews actually go to great lengths to establish Jesus Christ as Eternal God.
I suppose I could spend hours trying to guide you through every line and verse, but to what avail? Could I put it any better than the Hebrew writer did for you? And you reject what he said about it.
Here, read it a few times, don't let satan's antichrist methods of tearing apart the plain and simple words given to us by the writer of God's Word deceive you.....
"But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom." (vs5)
If you really want to understand the book of Hebrews, it begins long before with a Thomas confession..."My Lord and my God"...being born of God, receiving the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God and the Holy Spirit, yes, all three are One, you cannot have One without the others.
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Ro8:9)
Wow! there it is again, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ One in the same!
Why are you insistent on a rewrite? To what advantage is it for you? Is it to appease a friend, a mentor, family, a church? What is it?
I am the one who does understand how Jesus can be both Son of Man and Son of God. I write only to show my understanding of the scripture. Not to change anyone's mind, only my understanding.
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Because the Christ is the son of David through the woman the seed of David and because the Christ is also the Son of God through that same seed, the seed of the woman, being the only begotten Son of God through woman.
Does any scripture argue against that thought?
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