Trinity

[TrevorL]

Greetings 12strings,

I appreciate the questions and I will attempt to answer without going into too much detail.

So to clarify, you hold to ONE, non-trinitarian God?

I believe that there is one God, the Father:
1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV): But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Who is Jesus? Just a man? something in between?

He is a man born of his mother Mary and he is the Son of God by birth with God as His Father.
Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

During his ministry he was also the Son of God by character or moral glory:
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

After his resurrection and glorification he is still a man and also the Son of God by immortal glory bestowed upon him at the resurrection. He is now seated at the right hand of God the Father.
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV): For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Who is the Holy Spirit? The same as God the Father?
How do explain the Father "sending" the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit is God’s power that proceeds from Him.
Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Psalm 104:30 (KJV): Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

And do you claim that you understand this issue better than the myraids of accomplished Christian Scholars throughout the last 2,000 years who believed in the trinity?

I prefer to trust in the Word of God rather than the word of man. The Scriptures predict a falling away from the truth of the gospel. Greek philosphy and pagan ideas gradually replaced a true understanding of the NT words and ideas concerning this subject. Some of the NT words and ideas are largely based upon the OT revelation of the subject of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DHK]

I prefer to trust in the Word of God rather than the word of man. The Scriptures predict a falling away from the truth of the gospel. Greek philosphy and pagan ideas gradually replaced a true understanding of the NT words and ideas concerning this subject. Some of the NT words and ideas are largely based upon the OT revelation of the subject of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

It sounds like you believe in Oneness theology:
The Father manifested himself in the OT.
When the Son came the Father manifested himself through the Son.
At Pentecost the Holy Spirit was manifested and not the Son.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings DHK,

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
--This is not a statement of unity (as the J.W.'s believe; it is a statement of deity!
A.T. Robertson, Greek scholar explains it this way:
He is claiming deity; not unity. And the Jews knew it.

I believe it is a statement of unity, but I am not a JW. AT Robertson quotes John 17. Do you and AT Robertson believe that the Apostles and believers are also Deity?
John 17:11 (KJV): And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:21 (KJV): That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Again Robertson:
As you can see "the son of God" does not necessarily refer to John 10:30. Jesus had used the term many times before. Even if not said explicitly the term is implied in John 10:30, and to the Jews has the same meaning of deity. To you that may not be true but there is a stark distinction between "son of man" and "son of God," the latter referring to deity
That is not what he was claiming. If he was simply claiming unity the Jews would not have accused him of blasphemy. They accused him of blasphemy because he claimed deity in 10:30. .

I believe he is alluding firstly to John 10:30. To claim to be The Son of God is not to claim to be Deity as Luke 1:35 clearly indicates. He was a man, the Son of God by birth and character Luke 1:35, John 1:14.

Concerning your quotation of AT Robertson, I disagree. Jesus was explaining John 10:30 with the example of the unjust judges of Psalm 82:6 and context. I also believe that those that were accusing Jesus were in effect fulfilling Psalm 82 as they were speaking, and this also infuriated them as Jesus’ words revealed their true character of unfaithful and unjust representatives sitting in Moses’ seat in the Sanhedrin. They were condemning Jesus who was the true prophet that was to arise after the pattern of Moses Deuteronomy 18:15,18.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DHK]

Greetings DHK,

I believe it is a statement of unity, but I am not a JW. AT Robertson quotes John 17. Do you and AT Robertson believe that the Apostles and believers are also Deity?
John 17:11 (KJV): And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:21 (KJV): That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I believe he is alluding firstly to John 10:30. To claim to be The Son of God is not to claim to be Deity as Luke 1:35 clearly indicates. He was a man, the Son of God by birth and character Luke 1:35, John 1:14.

Concerning your quotation of AT Robertson, I disagree. Jesus was explaining John 10:30 with the example of the unjust judges of Psalm 82:6 and context.

The fact that you reject the historic and orthodox interpretation, backed up by Greek scholarship is telling. Your opinion is yours to give, but it certainly isn't orthodox. You stand on dangerous ground denying the deity of Christ.
Christ's use of Psalm 82 is in defense of his deity. The Jews knew that, and they were shamed. They had nothing more to say. Even without Psalm 82, the most obvious and plain interpretation is in verse 33. They accused him of blasphemy because he claimed deity. They understood what he was saying in verse 30--in the vernacular: "I am God." Therefore, they started to stone him.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

The passages of scripture you present are speaking of the human creation aspect of Messiah. This is why Jesus is called the son of man. Jesus is also called the Son of God. He is both fully man and fully God. A mystery indeed, but that is our God, full of mystery, we just accept what He says He is.

Luke 1:35 shows that Jesus is the Son of God because of his conception and birth, with Mary as his mother and God as his Father. John 1:14 shows that Jesus is the Son of God because of his moral character, and the source of this moral character is attributable to the fact that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father. I do not accept that Jesus was “fully God” during his ministry, as you seem to be indicating. The term “mystery” seems to be a term used by the Apostate Church in their creed. God is not a mystery as He has revealed Himself through His beloved Son.

Jesus chose to become a man and limit His knowledge to that which the Father revealed unto Him. This is the ultimate act of faith and submission, totally trusting the Father to guide Him and care for Him.

I do not accept this concept. Jesus grew in knowledge and wisdom. Please reconsider Philippians 2 in the light of his humility during his early life and ministry, rather than the shrinking of a deity into a man.

I believe what is hanging you up in accepting that Jesus is Eternal God is that you only are seeing Jesus' created human side. The scriptures reveal throughout the two fold nature of the Messiah, son of man and Son of God.

The Jews could not see this either, and this is why they wanted Him killed, for making Himself equal with God. They couldn't understand how a man could be God, or as Jesus put it, the Son of God.

I fully accept that Jesus is the Son of God. I do not accept that Jesus had a two-fold nature. He was a man, descended from Adam through Mary Hebrews 2:14. With God as His Father this did not alter the fact that he was a man. He was definitely specially prepared and gifted for the work he was given to accomplish, but still a man. He was given the Holy Spirit to accomplish his many miracles.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Yeshua1,

The jews knew very well that jesus claimed to be the SAME Yahweh who spoke to Moses, and was in their wilderness with them!

John used his "I Am" sayings to connect for us that Jesus is equal to, same as Yahweh of the OT!

If you fail to honor the Son JUST as you do the father, you have neither of them!

I am not sure if this comment is directed to other participants, or me. I would like to briefly comment that I do not believe that Jesus is the Angel who was revealed in the burning bush. I believe this Angel spoke and acted on behalf of Yahweh who I believe is God the Father. I also prefer the marginal alternative given in the RV and RSV “I will be” rather than the KJV “I AM”. Yes I believe it is very important to honour God the Father and also our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who now bears God’s Name, and to whom we must bow the knee.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

I fully accept that Jesus is the Son of God. I do not accept that Jesus had a two-fold nature. He was a man, descended from Adam through Mary Hebrews 2:14. With God as His Father this did not alter the fact that he was a man. He was definitely specially prepared and gifted for the work he was given to accomplish, but still a man. He was given the Holy Spirit to accomplish his many miracles.

Kind regards
Trevor

But you do not accept Jesus as the Son of God as Thomas had. Ye must be born-again.

If Jesus is not God, I would not worship Him, for I will only worship God, God alone is to be worshipped.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you find the following in the scriptures:

1. The Bible teaches that there is ONE GOD.
2. Jesus is the son of God.
3. Jesus is God.
4. The holy spirit is God.
5. Jesus prayed to his father, and spoke of sending the holy spirit, and that the father would send the holy spirit.


Then how else, other than a trinity of one God with 3 persons...do you explain the biblical evidence?

:thumbs:
Thank you

 

[12strings]

Greetings 12strings,

I appreciate the questions and I will attempt to answer without going into too much detail.

I believe that there is one God, the Father:
1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV): But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

He is a man born of his mother Mary and he is the Son of God by birth with God as His Father.
Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

During his ministry he was also the Son of God by character or moral glory:
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

After his resurrection and glorification he is still a man and also the Son of God by immortal glory bestowed upon him at the resurrection. He is now seated at the right hand of God the Father.
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV): For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

The Holy Spirit is God’s power that proceeds from Him.
Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Psalm 104:30 (KJV): Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

I prefer to trust in the Word of God rather than the word of man. The Scriptures predict a falling away from the truth of the gospel. Greek philosphy and pagan ideas gradually replaced a true understanding of the NT words and ideas concerning this subject. Some of the NT words and ideas are largely based upon the OT revelation of the subject of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Evidence #1:

Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Evidence #2:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Evidence #3:

Heb. 1:Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

This sounds like these Verses are describing:
1. Someone who is somehow distinct from God the Father.
2. An eternally-existing Deity who created the world, and sustains it by omnipotent power.

 

[12strings]

Evidence #4:

Is. 9:6 - For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


It sound's like this child to be born is Mighty God, Everlasting Father...Not just a man.

 

[steaver]

Evidence #1:

Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Evidence #2:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Evidence #3:

Heb. 1:Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

This sounds like these Verses are describing:
1. Someone who is somehow distinct from God the Father.
2. An eternally-existing Deity who created the world, and sustains it by omnipotent power.

:thumbsup: :thumbs: raying:

 

[12strings]

EVIDENCE #5: (hs)

Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Why would Jesus say this if what he really meant was, "Baptize them in the name of God the Father, and me, the man non-God, and the Spirit of God the Father, which is the same as God the Father. Same thing with...

2 Cor. 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Seems to be a distinction.

 

[Yeshua1]

It sounds like you believe in Oneness theology:
The Father manifested himself in the OT.
When the Son came the Father manifested himself through the Son.
At Pentecost the Holy Spirit was manifested and not the Son.

Actually, he more inline with wof teachers and the WORD cult, as they deny that jesus prexisted before Hisbirth, and was either 'adopted" by God as the messaih, or else was Son of God from birth forward, but NOT God...

 

[Yeshua1]

EVIDENCE #5: (hs)

Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Why would Jesus say this if what he really meant was, "Baptize them in the name of God the Father, and me, the man non-God, and the Spirit of God the Father, which is the same as God the Father. Same thing with...

2 Cor. 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Seems to be a distinction.

read Chapter 1 hebrews! Clear that the author told and showed us per the scriptures that God the Father saw Jesus as Son in the sense of being the One angels worshipped, and that he called Him God!

So since God called jesus God also, commanded Him to be worshipped, and ONLY God is to be worshipped, how can he be NOT God?

 

[percho]

Does anyone believe, "Hear you! Israel Yahweh Elohim of us Yahweh one,"
actually caused by His Spirit, the fertilization of the ovum of the virgin Mary and that ovum divided and divided and so forth until a living soul was born? A living soul that did not exist until that process came to fruition, except in the Father by which the fertilization took place?

That the man child born to Mary was the Son of the Living God? The only begotten Son born of a woman?

Is that not what the Word of God says?

For instance. Just as Levi, who was to receive the tithes, paid tithes in Abraham for he was yet in the loins of his father, Abraham when Melchisedec met Abraham; Could not Jesus have had glory with the Father, being he came from the Father?


I am just asking. Please do not go off the deep end. Would there be scriptures that refute this thought?

No one commented on the following, yet doesn't the following say about the very same thing as above? Some of you Hebrew Gurus, kick in. As I know no Greek neither do I know Hebrew. What is the literal of the following Hebrew translated in KJV I Am that I Am?

Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am." Greek: ἐγὼ εἰμί, literally, I Am.

Was the literal, I Am in John 8:58 stating the fulfillment of prophesy of the literal of Ehyeh asher ehyeh? Translated by KJV as I Am that I Am. literally: I will be what I will be or I shall become who I am becoming. Scripture4all.org
Interlinear Hebrew.

What about Phil. 2:7; Did God the Father, in Jesus Christ the living soul Son of God, self empty himself? The Father God still in heaven in all his glory and his Son on the earth, a living soul needing, glory to be given him, needing life in himself given him, begotten by Spirit Holy, living a sinless life, yet upon commending his spirit (life) into the hands of the Father, needing the renewing of the Holy Spirit? You cannot dodge or deny that scripture states God the Father gave these to the Son by resurrection.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

But you do not accept Jesus as the Son of God as Thomas had. Ye must be born-again.

Have you ever considered the birth and development of a child, and how that child often grows to be like his parents? We use the terms nurture and nature to describe this process. I am using nature to describe those hereditary traits received from a parent, and some of this involves a child’s capacity for wisdom or music or other qualities possessed by the parent. This is how I understand Jesus was The Son of God. I believe that this concept of nurture and nature is reflected in Luke 1:35, John 1:14 and Luke 2:40,52 mentioned previously. To these I would like to add the following as evidence that The Father continually instructed His Son:
Isaiah 50:4-5 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.

If Jesus is not God, I would not worship Him, for I will only worship God, God alone is to be worshipped.

Philippians 2:8-11 (KJV): 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Could I suggest that you read the above carefully. It speaks of the character and work, and then the exaltation of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is now in every respect the Son of God, glorified and seated at the right hand of God the Father. If the Trinity were true, wouldn’t the verse say “to the glory of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit?” But this is not the teaching of the Bible. It was God’s work in and through His Son that God the Father has accomplished. It says God has highly exalted him. Why does it not say: “God the Son resumed his position of authority back in heaven?”

The Scriptures says that God has highly exalted His Son, and asks us to bow the knee before His Son, and that this will redound to the glory of God the Father. You may choose to ignore this request at your peril, but I encourage you to carefully reconsider this.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again percho,

No one commented on the following, yet doesn't the following say about the very same thing as above? Some of you Hebrew Gurus, kick in. As I know no Greek neither do I know Hebrew. What is the literal of the following Hebrew translated in KJV I Am that I Am?

Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am." Greek: ἐγὼ εἰμί, literally, I Am.

Was the literal, I Am in John 8:58 stating the fulfillment of prophesy of the literal of Ehyeh asher ehyeh? Translated by KJV as I Am that I Am. literally: I will be what I will be or I shall become who I am becoming. Scripture4all.org

I appreciate you asking this as it has been a subject that I am interested in. Initially I will not comment on John 8:58. I am not a Hebrew scholar, but the following is what I understand with the help of others as well as some of my own thoughts based upon the Word.

The Name of God was revealed to Moses in the following terms:
Exodus 3:14-15 (KJV): 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation.

The word “ehyeh” is the same in the earlier statement, and here the translators give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity.

This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this future work in delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Yeshua1]

Greetings again steaver,

Have you ever considered the birth and development of a child, and how that child often grows to be like his parents? We use the terms nurture and nature to describe this process. I am using nature to describe those hereditary traits received from a parent, and some of this involves a child’s capacity for wisdom or music or other qualities possessed by the parent. This is how I understand Jesus was The Son of God. I believe that this concept of nurture and nature is reflected in Luke 1:35, John 1:14 and Luke 2:40,52 mentioned previously. To these I would like to add the following as evidence that The Father continually instructed His Son:
Isaiah 50:4-5 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.

Philippians 2:8-11 (KJV): 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Could I suggest that you read the above carefully. It speaks of the character and work, and then the exaltation of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is now in every respect the Son of God, glorified and seated at the right hand of God the Father. If the Trinity were true, wouldn’t the verse say “to the glory of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit?” But this is not the teaching of the Bible. It was God’s work in and through His Son that God the Father has accomplished. It says God has highly exalted him. Why does it not say: “God the Son resumed his position of authority back in heaven?”

The Scriptures says that God has highly exalted His Son, and asks us to bow the knee before His Son, and that this will redound to the glory of God the Father. You may choose to ignore this request at your peril, but I encourage you to carefully reconsider this.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus said that he left heaven, left behind the glory he ALWAYS had with the father, for He is eternally GOD! Incarnated as a human being, and temp agreed to limit Himself, kenosis, and once resurrected"took back" the fulness of His Deity not fully revealed here on earth!

God CANNOT allow any other being to get worshipped, he is a jealous God, so jesus would HAVE to as Much God as the father is!

 

[steaver]

The Scriptures says that God has highly exalted His Son, and asks us to bow the knee before His Son, and that this will redound to the glory of God the Father. You may choose to ignore this request at your peril, but I encourage you to carefully reconsider this.

Kind regards
Trevor

What am I to "carefully reconsider" at my "peril"?

Are you suggesting that my worshipping of Jesus Christ as God will condemn me?

Do you understand that "bowing the knee" to Jesus Christ is not salvation? Ye must be born of God. I have asked you a few times now and I have not been given an answer; Do you understand what born-again means?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again DHK,

Sorry for the delay in responding to this, but I am falling behind in responding to the various posts.

The fact that you reject the historic and orthodox interpretation, backed up by Greek scholarship is telling. Your opinion is yours to give, but it certainly isn't orthodox. You stand on dangerous ground denying the deity of Christ.
Christ's use of Psalm 82 is in defense of his deity. The Jews knew that, and they were shamed. They had nothing more to say. Even without Psalm 82, the most obvious and plain interpretation is in verse 33. They accused him of blasphemy because he claimed deity. They understood what he was saying in verse 30--in the vernacular: "I am God." Therefore, they started to stone him.

Looking again at your original quotation from AT Robertson. I don’t think he is saying what you are claiming:

One (hen). Neuter, not masculine (heis). Not one person (cf. heis in Ga 3:28), but one essence or nature. By the plural sumus (separate persons) Sabellius is refuted, by unum Arius. So Bengel rightly argues, though Jesus is not referring, of course, to either Sabellius or Arius. The Pharisees had accused Jesus of making himself equal with God as his own special Father (Joh 5:18). Jesus then admitted and proved this claim (Joh 5:19-30). Now he states it tersely in this great saying repeated later (Joh 17:11,21). Note hen used in 1Co 3:3 of the oneness in work of the planter and the waterer and in Joh 17:11,23 of the hoped for unity of Christ's disciples. This crisp statement is the climax of Christ's claims concerning the relation between the Father and himself (the Son). They stir the Pharisees to uncontrollable anger.

I am still a bit lost at how you arrive at “in the vernacular: "I am God." ” The literal meaning of John 10:30 is that Jesus is claiming that God is His Father, and that he is united or at one with Him, and this fits exactly with his statement in v36 that He is The Son of God. Do you believe that God has a Father? In my opinion Trinitarians have no right to state that Jesus is The Son of God in the true sense of the words. They do not believe that God has brought to birth and developed a Son. They believe that Jesus is really God the Son. They are forced to mimic that Jesus is The Son of God only because of the overwhelming use of this phrase in the NT.

Or are you relying only on AT Robertson’s statement “one essence or nature”? I believe he is only showing his Trinitarian bias in this explanation of “one” in John 10:30. Is he consistent? What about “Note hen used in 1Co 3:3 of the oneness in work of the planter and the waterer and in Joh 17:11,23 of the hoped for unity of Christ's disciples. This crisp statement is the climax of Christ's claims concerning the relation between the Father and himself (the Son).” I read this as saying that Jesus and His Father have a unity of character, purpose and work. This is even part of Jesus’ response:
John 10:32 (KJV): Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
John 10:37-38 (KJV): 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Paul who planted, and Apollos who watered were not “one essence or nature”, but they were united in the work they were seeking to achieve, the establishment and growth of the spiritual character of the believers at Corinth. Also you did not respond to my comment concerning John 17:11, 23 where exactly the same terms as John 10:30 are applied to the believers – the unity of John 10:30 between Jesus and His Father is to be extended to the Apostles and believers. Are they to be incorporated into the Trinity?

I believe that the believers are to be united in the family of God, God the Father, Jesus the Son of God, and the believers the adopted sons of God. In this sense alone all become part of God and the ultimate is the One God the Father becoming all and in all.
1 Corinthians 15:25-28 (KJV): 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
I have never read a satisfactory Trinitarian explanation of what is underlined above.

It may help to understand John 10 by clarifying why the judges were called God or gods. It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.

The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God. Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father. He was united with His Father in character and works.

Kind regards
Trevor