-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
True calvinism
- Thread starter billwald
- Start date
In that case, welcome to the board
JML CASSIAN
New Member
JML CASSIAN
New Member
It's pretty strange, the way people interpret plain passages of scripture. For example, John 1:29: "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the SIN of the World." Seems pretty clear to me.
What does it mean? It means "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the SIN of the World."
To others, it means the Lamb of God who takes away some of the sin of the world for some of the people some of the time.
No wonder there are 20,000 different denominations. Everyone wants to add or subtract from the plain meaning of the text.
I just picked one verse out, but there are 100s of others that receive worse treatment than this one. :wavey:
What does it mean? It means "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the SIN of the World."
To others, it means the Lamb of God who takes away some of the sin of the world for some of the people some of the time.
No wonder there are 20,000 different denominations. Everyone wants to add or subtract from the plain meaning of the text.
I just picked one verse out, but there are 100s of others that receive worse treatment than this one. :wavey:
No,Jesus took away the sin of some people scattered around the world.His death was international in scope. Not only from among the Jewish nation but from every nation,tribe and language. These people are the elect --chosen from before the foundation of the world.
As Jim said,you'd have Universalism if you think that each and every person -- past,present and future had their sins removed by Christ's death.Christ died for those He came to save --the Church,Christ's Bride,the sheep and many other designations that the Bible uses.
:laugh::thumbs::thumbs:
Is that your cute way of trying to communicate something to us JML? Ha, Ha,Ha very funny.:tongue3:
JML CASSIAN
New Member
There is no "if" about it. The scriptures are plain. John 1:29; 2 Cor 5:18-21.
That is a tired old Calvinist assertion. It does not lead to universalism anymore. That is a false alternative. He didn't provide a way, he did it.
So disagree with John 1:29--Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the SIN of the world. You are saying he did not take away the sin of the world. Argue with the scriptures:
I have stated what I believe about the Atonement applying to everyone without exception, or maybe that was somewhere else. So, once again: The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World. There you have it. Romans 5:12-21 explains the barrier put between God and man by Adam's fall. 2 Cor 5:18-21 explains the answer, as well as John 1:29.
We do NOT have free will to make the initial decision or make any movement toward God, unless enabled to by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Receiving what has ALREADY been done for you is like receiving a gift from someone who is handing it to you. You can call THAT "a choice, making a decision to accept" what is being handed to you if you want to, but I don't.
Someone walks up to you says "here, I have something for you," and hands it to you. You put your hand out and receive what it is. You didn't choose or make a decision about the gift beforehand. You didn't have any idea it was going to be offered.
Likewise, before you HEAR the Word, you haven't a clue what has transpired salvation wise. But Holy Writ says "Faith comes from HEARING, and HEARING from the preaching of the Word.
You hear the word, you understand what has been accomplished for you on the Cross and you love it and recognize it as the greatest act of love in the universe, and you receive that accomplished work and appropriate that finished work.
To me it's pretty simple, just like the gospel. I think we complicate things too much.
My explanation of why some end up in hell is because they fail or outright reject what has already been done for them. They rather live in darkness because their deeds are evil, or they don't think God exists and are fools, or many other reasons. The fact is, God isn't wringing His hands and hoping someone will accept him. No, not at all. Everything necessary to reconcile the world to God, has already been done. Just hear the Word and receive it as your own. God doesn't believe for you.
I don't claim to be a brilliant theologian, just the average guy in the pew.
But I know that the universal passages connected with salvation mean exactly what they state, and do not have to be bent to fit a certain theology.
I believe scripture, not someone who flatly states that opposite, which is that "he did not take away the sin of the world." So much for subtracting from scripture.
We appropriate, individually, what has already been done for us on the Cross. What do we appropriate, or acknowledge? We trust, appropriate and acknowledge the promises of Christ in the gospel.
The bottom line is that if Christ had not died on the Cross, salvation, justification, remission of sins, would not be possible.
Acknowledging or trusting in the promises of Christ is, to me at least, totally different than thinking an unregenerate sinner can make a choice/decision to choose Christ.
Or, put another way, when used in connection with justification, faith must always be regarded as receptivity like an empty hand which does nothing but solely receives a free gift.
JML CASSIAN
New Member
Like I said, my attempt at humor!
JML,when you say that Christ took away the sin of the world you instantly think that means He has removed the sin of each and every person head-for-head? You think He atoned for everyone's sin head-for-head? You believe that there is no wrath awaiting anyone? Because if that's the case it does in fact mean that you hold to Universalism. Christ's death indeed atoned for sins fully --but only for those who will not be under the Lord's wrath in eternal perdition. His death did not remove sin from everyone who has and shall live upon the earth. His death did not atone for the same. His death did not secure intercession for each and every person who has and shall live on the earth.
Good post!
savedbymercy
New Member
jml:
John means the World of the elect or the Sheep or the Church, people from all over the world, and not just national israel..Its an emphasis on the scope of the world.
We know it cannot mean every individual without exception, because many will die in their sins..
John means the World of the elect or the Sheep or the Church, people from all over the world, and not just national israel..Its an emphasis on the scope of the world.
We know it cannot mean every individual without exception, because many will die in their sins..
Fred's Wife
Member
Just because many will reject Christ does not mean that Christ did not die for the sins of every individual in the entire world. Where in John 1:29 does "world" mean "the World of the elect or the Sheep or the Church"?
BTW, the "Church" was not in existence until Pentecost, so that verse cannot mean the Church.
GE:
The Word of God is NOT 'plain'. 'Plain' is vulgar; God's Word - the Scriptures - is Divine.
Like sweets too easily eaten, 'plain' Scriptures afterwards turn nasty inside.
savedbymercy
New Member
freds wife:
He did not die for everyone in the world, and Jn 1 29 does not say He did..and everyone Christ did die for shall be made righteous by His obedience. Rom 5:
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
His obedience is His death here as obedient unto death Phil 2:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
And His obedient death, just like Adam's disobedience made many sinners, Christ obedience shall make many righteous..That means also they shall be made believers..
He did not die for everyone in the world, and Jn 1 29 does not say He did..and everyone Christ did die for shall be made righteous by His obedience. Rom 5:
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
His obedience is His death here as obedient unto death Phil 2:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
And His obedient death, just like Adam's disobedience made many sinners, Christ obedience shall make many righteous..That means also they shall be made believers..
JML CASSIAN
New Member
Would you be kind enough to point out where the word "scattered" appears in John 1:29?
The charge of universalism is a common assertion by Calvinists, but it doesn't hold water. It's not the "sins" but the SIN. What sin? The sin of Adam that all descendants inherit from him that has put the barrier between man and God. The Lamb of God took away THAT sin on the Cross, removed the barrier, and reconciled man to God. (2 Cor 5:18-21). Before glory, and in this world man still has the sin nature and life is a struggle. (Romans 7). However, if we do sin, we have an advocate, Jesus Christ. The daily sins are not imputed to us, but were imputed to Christ. When God looks at us, he sees Jesus Christ. Universalism is really nothing but a strawman argument, therefore invalid.
Whether the Calvinist thinks "all" or the "world" or any of the other universal type words mean all kinds, or Jews and Gentiles, or scattered, the bottom line is the Calvinist means the "elect," no matter how they word it.
The remedy for the snake bit was for all, but only those that acknowledged that remedy and applied it to themselves were saved. Much like applying the blood to the door post so the angel of death would pass by. It was available to all Jews without exception, but if you did not apply it to yourself, you perished.
Salvation is solely and exclusively by the blood of Christ. His atoning death on behalf of sinners is what saves. Salvation is only actualized when it is individually received by repentance and faith.
Think of it as a granting of general amnesty, like that granted to conscientious objectors and resisters who fled to Canada and were offered pardon if they returned to the United States. Some took advantage of what was already there for them, and some did not. Those that did not, did not lessen the value of the amnesty. The amnesty was still there.
Last edited by a moderator:
JML CASSIAN
New Member
You said: "He did not die for everyone in the world, and Jn 1 29 does not say He did."
John 1:29--The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
To me, that verse means "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. It says what it means and means what it says.
The SIN spoken of is Adam's sin. That was taken away on the Cross and God has reconciled all to himself. (2 Cor 5:18-21). All we need to do is acknowledge what has been done for us, by repentance and belief. The Cross was universal (objective justification if you will). The application of that work on the Cross must be individually appropriated (subjective justification, if you will).
Jesus died for the ungodly. All are ungodly. Therefore he died for all.
See Post 77
JML CASSIAN
New Member
I don't believe any such thing. See Posts 77 and 78. The Cross took away the sin of Adam that we all inherited and removed that barrier between man and God.
Whole heartedly agree:thumbs: