True calvinism

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Scriptures will not support that idea of Christs death for all humans. Jesus said He came into the world to do the will of His Father, and that will was that He should save all who were given Him (the elect) even before the world began (John 6: 37-39). Jesus came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins, and He did it (Matt. 1: 21; Rom. 8: 33, 34). He died for His sheep, not for goats (John 10: 15). He died for sons, for the sanctified, for the brethren, for the church, and for the children (Heb. 2: 9-15). He saw the travail of His soul and was satisfied (Isa. 53: 10-12) .

 

[savedbymercy]

Scriptures will not support that idea of Christs death for all humans. Jesus said He came into the world to do the will of His Father, and that will was that He should save all who were given Him (the elect) even before the world began (John 6: 37-39). Jesus came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins, and He did it (Matt. 1: 21; Rom. 8: 33, 34). He died for His sheep, not for goats (John 10: 15). He died for sons, for the sanctified, for the brethren, for the church, and for the children (Heb. 2: 9-15). He saw the travail of His soul and was satisfied (Isa. 53: 10-12) .

Very good, Jesus accomplished victorious redemption for all His People, those given to Him by the Father in the everlasting covenant..

 

[savedbymercy]

jml:

The Cross took away the sin of Adam that we all inherited and removed that barrier between man and God.

Thats Salvation, Reconciliation. Now the bible says that all who have been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, Shall [not maybe] be saved by His Life Rom 5:

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Basically what this is saying, all for whom Christ died objectively, shall be saved subjectively..

 

[savedbymercy]

jml:

You said: "He did not die for everyone in the world, and Jn 1 29 does not say He did."

Yes, Jn 1 29 does not say that Jesus Christ died for everyone in the world. It states that He took away the sin of the world. The word world almost never means every individual without exception. But what it means is :

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort :

A general collection of particular persons is a world.

You see He took away the sin of the Sheep, all of them throughout the world..or the Children of God Jn 11:


51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

That gathering in of all the Children of God scattered abroad, when all brought together it makes a World..

 

[Amy.G]

savedbymercy;1677318]jml:
Yes, Jn 1 29 does not say that Jesus Christ died for everyone in the world. It states that He took away the sin of the world. The word world almost never means every individual without exception.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.



Is every man a sinner or only a few? Christ came to save sinners. Every man born of Adam is a sinner. Therefore Christ came to save every man.


"World" almost always in scripture refers to sinful mankind, not part of sinful mankind.

 

[savedbymercy]

amy:

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Notice Two things here. #1 He came into the world to save sinners, does not say all sinners without exception.

#2. He came to save sinners, not possibly save. The sinners He came to save, like paul was, He actually saved them, in fact, that is paul's whole point..

 

[savedbymercy]

Christ Purpose was to save, not possibly save !

Lk 19:

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Its noteworthy to take notice that the Blessed Saviour made this statement right after Illustrating His Power to save. The one He saved was the tax collector, Take notice Lk 19:

1And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.

2And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.

3And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.

4And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.

5And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

6And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

7And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

8And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

This is How the Seeking Shepherd seeks out and finds His Sheep to save.

Lk 15:

3And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Notice, that repentance is manifested as a result of the Shepherd finding His Lost Sheep, so repentance is the effect of being found by the seeking Shepherd, Christ gives His Lost Sheep repentance, thats what happened in Zacchaeus, Christ in bringing salvation unto him, gave him repentance. Notice what he says: Lk 10:

8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

He is victorious and successful in what He does, He actually seeks and actually saves those whom He seeks..

 

[billwald]

A friend was a couple months behind in his electricity bill. He went to the power company office to plead for mercy and they told him the bill was paid. He told them they must have credited his account with someone else's check in error and they replied that there was no way for them to investigate.

The point? I can pay your bills or put money in your bank account without your permission if I have the account number. I can do this but God can't regenerate you without your permission? I have more power than God?

 

[DHK]

Lk 19:

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Welcome to the board savedbymercy.

Jesus came to save that which was lost. Math is one of my favorite subject.
Subtract the lost from the world population. It equals the saved.
In other words he came to die for all the world, all sinners. The truth above is that the saved don't need saving. The truth in John 3:3 is that one needs to be born again. It doesn't say: "You must be born again and again and again." He came to save the lost; not those who had already put their trust in him. They didn't need saving. When he said that he hadn't gone to the cross yet. He didn't have to seek and save John the Baptist. He was already saved.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk:

Welcome to the board savedbymercy.

Thanks..

Jesus came to save that which was lost.

Yes, and if He does not save all that His Father desires to be saved, then He has failed His Fathers will for Him..Jn 6:

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1 Tim 2:

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You have to have more to offer than just that. I am not a Calvinist, but I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ also. Just because you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ does not make you a Calvinist. It makes you a non-Calvinist as much as a Calvinist.
[/SIZE]

GE:

Your Logic, DHK, is correct. But I go by faith.

 

[JML CASSIAN]

JML,when you say that Christ took away the sin of the world you instantly think that means He has removed the sin of each and every person head-for-head? You think He atoned for everyone's sin head-for-head? You believe that there is no wrath awaiting anyone? Because if that's the case it does in fact mean that you hold to Universalism. Christ's death indeed atoned for sins fully --but only for those who will not be under the Lord's wrath in eternal perdition. His death did not remove sin from everyone who has and shall live upon the earth. His death did not atone for the same. His death did not secure intercession for each and every person who has and shall live on the earth.

What I believe is what the verse plainly states. Let's try again.

The SIN that was taken away was the sin of Adam, that we all inherited because we are descendants of Adam. The Cross removed the barrier that Adam's sin placed between God and man, and it did it for every single person without exception, past, present and future. It it were left at that, and all men were automatically saved without anything else, that would be universalism.

However, just like the Passover applied to all Israelites without exception, provided they apply that offer to themselves personally by putting blood on the door so the angel of death would pass them by, just as the offer was for all without exception that if bitten by a poisonous snake, that benefit had to be personally applied by looking up at the bronze serpent, so it is with what Christ has already done for us on the Cross. And further, God has reconciled us to Him (2 Cor 5:18-21). For that to effect us personally, we need to acknowledge and receive it personally.

It's like a general amnesty during the Vietnam war. All conscientious objectors were offered amnesty and some took advantage of that offer, and some did not. Those that did not, did not lessen the amnesty offer and they have no one to blame but themselves for rejecting that offer---not applying it to themselves, if you will.

"Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the SIN of the world." Just look at all the explanations given to try and make that verse say something other than what it plainly says. Let scripture interpret scripture, not our interpretation of scripture interpret scripture. If you do the latter, you end up saying the "yes, but...but....it doesn't mean, it can't mean, because...."

Stop all that. It means what it says and it s plain as day. There is absolutely no universalism involved.

How do we acknowledge what was done on the Cross? God has provided the means for that by the power of the gospel. Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the preaching of the word. Faith is the conviction that the promises of God are true and that He will do what he says he will do.

In our natural condition, we were children of wrath by nature. The Cross took that away. The gospel is really believing that are sins are forgiven because of or for Christ's sake. And where there is forgiveness/remission of sins, there is justification and life.

 

[JML CASSIAN]

jml:



Thats Salvation, Reconciliation. Now the bible says that all who have been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, Shall [not maybe] be saved by His Life Rom 5:

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Basically what this is saying, all for whom Christ died objectively, shall be saved subjectively..

Saved subjectively if received personally.

 

[JML CASSIAN]

jml:



Yes, Jn 1 29 does not say that Jesus Christ died for everyone in the world. It states that He took away the sin of the world. The word world almost never means every individual without exception. But what it means is :

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort :

A general collection of particular persons is a world.

You see He took away the sin of the Sheep, all of them throughout the world..or the Children of God Jn 11:


51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

That gathering in of all the Children of God scattered abroad, when all brought together it makes a World..

When used in passages referring to salvation, "world" almost always means every single individual without exception. The word is kosmos:

Strong's G2889 - kosmos

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

The context determines the meaning. However, the little trick some like to use is say "world" doesn't always mean everyone." No kiddding!! But what they do is then go to scriptures that happen to be talking about geography or some other topic and say "see" world can't mean all without exception.

Comparing apples and hot rods just doesn't make for good biblical hermeneutics.

 

[JML CASSIAN]

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.



Is every man a sinner or only a few? Christ came to save sinners. Every man born of Adam is a sinner. Therefore Christ came to save every man.


"World" almost always in scripture refers to sinful mankind, not part of sinful mankind.

Amen to that, Amy. John 1:29 does not stand alone. Let scripture interpret scripture and as you pointed out, doing that makes the passage plain as day.

 

[JML CASSIAN]

Scriptures will not support that idea of Christs death for all humans. Jesus said He came into the world to do the will of His Father, and that will was that He should save all who were given Him (the elect) even before the world began (John 6: 37-39). Jesus came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins, and He did it (Matt. 1: 21; Rom. 8: 33, 34). He died for His sheep, not for goats (John 10: 15). He died for sons, for the sanctified, for the brethren, for the church, and for the children (Heb. 2: 9-15). He saw the travail of His soul and was satisfied (Isa. 53: 10-12) .

Oh, my friend, but it does. What part of John 1:29 do you disagree with? Nice Calvinist twist on those passages, but that's all it is.

In John 6:37-39 and the other passages you quoted, what you are really saying is the gospel was NOT offered to all without exception, but to the elect only. The gospel was to be preached to all nations (all people), baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them etc.

No person or minister of the gospel can say with truth, under your system, that every particular man, if you believe you shall be saved. (John 6:47). The reason you can't say that to every particular man, is because in your system it isn't true. He died only "for his own."

In the statement "believe and you shall be saved," there are no conditions between the "believe" and "be saved." If there were, the proposition wouldn't be true.

So, in your view, go out and preach the gospel to all without exception and say any who believe shall be saved. But that, in your system, would be a lie because "his people" were saved before the foundation of the world and you don't know who "his people" are, so by offering to everyone you are being a gross deceiver. BTW, if as you say, "his people" were saved before the foundation of the world, doesn't that make faith and repentance superfluous?

That's like saying "OK, all you elect who believe and repent, believe and repent." Superfluous, to say the least.

Oh, and he did die for the goats.

Genesis 3:15--15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

We all without exception, before regeneration, were goats and the seed of the devil. We were lost and born under a death sentence. But Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the SIN of the World.

We just need to acknowledge what has already been done for us. That's what the whole analogy is between the first and second Adam.

 

[JML CASSIAN]

Lk 19:

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Its noteworthy to take notice that the Blessed Saviour made this statement right after Illustrating His Power to save. The one He saved was the tax collector, Take notice Lk 19:

1And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.

2And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.

3And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.

4And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.

5And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

6And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

7And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

8And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

This is How the Seeking Shepherd seeks out and finds His Sheep to save.

Lk 15:

3And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Notice, that repentance is manifested as a result of the Shepherd finding His Lost Sheep, so repentance is the effect of being found by the seeking Shepherd, Christ gives His Lost Sheep repentance, thats what happened in Zacchaeus, Christ in bringing salvation unto him, gave him repentance. Notice what he says: Lk 10:

8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

He is victorious and successful in what He does, He actually seeks and actually saves those whom He seeks..

Yes indeed! He came to save the lost. We all, without exception, were lost.

 

[JML CASSIAN]

dhk:



Thanks..



Yes, and if He does not save all that His Father desires to be saved, then He has failed His Fathers will for Him..Jn 6:

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1 Tim 2:

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

That is Calvinist dogma, not scripture. See post 92.

It's like a general amnesty during the Vietnam war. All conscientious objectors were offered amnesty and some took advantage of that offer, and some did not. Those that did not, did not lessen the amnesty offer and they have no one to blame but themselves for rejecting that offer---not applying it to themselves, if you will.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is Calvinist dogma, not scripture. See post 92.

Oh I understand now....a guy who doesnt understand Election. Well now, guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

However let me say this.....Election is not dogma. Its Scriptural & it's Orthodox Reformed Doctrine.Can I recommend books for you to read so you could understand it?

 

[JML CASSIAN]

Oh I understand now....a guy who doesnt understand Election. Well now, guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

However let me say this.....Election is not dogma. Its Scriptural & it's Orthodox Reformed Doctrine.Can I recommend books for you to read so you could understand it?

I never said election wasn't scripture. I've read all of Arthur Pink, and a few 100 others. Don't be condescending, please! I was a 5-Point Calvinist for 25 years, until I got tired of their twisted, mental gymnastics in order to make scripture fit into their dogma.

Did Christ die for all without exception or just for some? That is the question under discussion, and you totally ignored all my points. I'm sorry, but that's what I usually get.

I spent an hour putting out my reasoning, and the typical Calvinist comes back with "so you don't understand election."

You do know that there are OTHER parts of scripture, and scripture interprets scripture, not some systematic dogma that has to be forced into the scripture?