I get a good laugh from your detective work :laugh: :thumbs:
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True/False : it is The Will of God that NONE perish, All Receive His Son Jesus!
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
This is what JesusFan asked in his OP : "Should we interpret the Bible to be saying God truly desires ALL to be saved,and that NONE perish in their sins,or as something else?"
You replied :"True." You didn't deal with the or.
So does God truly desire all to be saved with no one perishing in their sins OR, something else?
You can't say simply say :"True." Something else would be in contradiction to the first part of his question. Do you now understand?
I'm thinking you don't understand. Both parts are true, hence "true". It's like being asked if I like pizza or do I like cheeseburgers. The answer is yes.
"Something else" negates the first part of his question.
Do you mean "do I like pizza or something else"? Answer is still yes.
No,I don't mean anything remotely resembling food.
You either believe that the Lord desires each and every person in human history to be saved and that nobody will perish in their sins OR not.
You can't have it several different ways WD.
You either agree that the Lord wants every person in human history to be saved with no exceptions and that each and every one of them He desires not to be lost or... He desires some to be saved and not lost throughout eternity (as I do).
Your analogies are too weak. Do you believe that Jesus is the only Way,Truth and Life whereby anyone can be saved,OR something else? See? It doesn't work for you,does it?
Dr Mixer GED
Member
Well Luke, IMO, the passage I quoted originally does tell us why. Jesus said "how often would I have" and then He said "they would not". He wanted them! They would not!
I am not questioning God, I am questioning you.
I probably should have worded it better as well.
Why do YOU think God would lament over those not choosing Him if they never had a chance?
Dr Mixer GED
Member
Another thing I wanted to add. Why is it that when the Bible says that God wants ALL to be saved, it doesn't really mean ALL? But when it says ALL have sinned, all does indeed mean all! Or God loving the world, doesn't really mean the whole world? Maybe every man having a equal chance would bruise the ego too much for us "elect"?
Your kidding!
I believe 2 Peter 3:9...apparently you are the one who has an issue with it.
Based on my answer to the op I showed just that.
Here you are mixing will with desire. No wonder you are confused.
My analogy is weak? :laugh: I showed when you ask a question similar to "when did you stop beating your wife" in applying what is supposed to be two contradictory answers when there is none an appropriate answer can coincided. "Or something else" is way to vague to imply it must by necessity be a contradictory reply.
Do you like to drink water or breathe? Clearly breathing is "something else" and does not contradict the first.
Get it now?
I have an issue about your interpretation of it. Most Christians go along with your point of view on the verse. But I still think it refers only to the elect. I have an ussue with how most Christians interpret John 3:16. But I think they are biblically in error.
You got that right. It's downright anemic.
Then you shouldn't agree with a nebulous "something else" by saying true.You can't get away with saying yes to two possibly contradictory things.
Is the Lord the Author of salvation OR something else?
Sorry Bud. He's the Author of salvation --no human is. No other answer is possible.
Your word games are not appropriate for these theological issues. Your thoughts are too human as Martin Luther told Erasmus.
I don't want what you have.
Dr.Mixer
You said;
Why do you think Jesus wept when Lazuras died .....knowing he was going to raise him from the dead?
You said;
Why do you think Jesus wept when Lazuras died .....knowing he was going to raise him from the dead?
Dr Mixer GED
Member
Jesus wept because He was moved by the peoples sadness. He groaned in the spirit after seeing Mary and the Jews weeping.
Can you answer a question I posted above? Why is it that ALL means ALL as in for all have sinned when you need to explain the first letter in your tulip, yet ALL really doesn't mean ALL or WHOLE WORLD doesn't really mean the whole world when it collides with Calvins cosmic lottery? Man, those whole Calvinist families really lucked out, didn't they?
mged
Yes I can answer your questions if you are interested in getting an answer biblically. I will start out plain and simple. if you want to raise the bar a bit higher we can do that also.
you said;
Because biblically there is a seperation of two distinct groups.
ALL In Adam.....all humans conceived dead in sin
All In Christ.....The Elect..born again In Christ.
MGED......The bible everywhere makes or demonstrates this seperation...
So......unless you believe God will save every human being...you also must make ,or see this seperation if you want to say you believe the bible.
Do not know you well enough to understand if you are being sarcastic, or funny here.....in either case
God has a plan and purpose.it is happening as we speak[or type]
There is no luck,lottery ,or chance...just God's decreed purpose.
If Calvin and others read and saw this in scripture should not be a surprise, but rather instead of making these comments you should be concerned with God's eternal plan being revealed to the church.
If you have a serious question feel free to post it.
Dr Mixer GED
Member
A little sarcasm...
Yes, I understand there are distinctions, however, I do not subscribe to reformed theology and therefore we clearly read differently into most scripture used in debating election.
That being said, no, I obviously do not believe all will be saved, and never implied it. Simply stated, as I believe scripture shows, that God's desire is that all would come to repentance.
I have a very dear friend, who I highly respect that adheres to the Doctrines of Grace. He is one of the most humble people I know.
However, I find the reformed crowd overall to be some of the most arrogant and haughty people around. Not saying that is true of you, just something I've come to see over time.
Anyhow, I will leave it at that.
To God goes ALL the Glory! (and I really do mean all :thumbs
Yes, I understand there are distinctions, however, I do not subscribe to reformed theology and therefore we clearly read differently into most scripture used in debating election.
That being said, no, I obviously do not believe all will be saved, and never implied it. Simply stated, as I believe scripture shows, that God's desire is that all would come to repentance.
I have a very dear friend, who I highly respect that adheres to the Doctrines of Grace. He is one of the most humble people I know.
However, I find the reformed crowd overall to be some of the most arrogant and haughty people around. Not saying that is true of you, just something I've come to see over time.
Anyhow, I will leave it at that.
To God goes ALL the Glory! (and I really do mean all :thumbs
Yes, I understand there are distinctions, however, I do not subscribe to reformed theology and therefore we clearly read differently into most scripture used in debating election.
That being said, no, I obviously do not believe all will be saved, and never implied it.
I know you did not imply this.....but now, allow me to ask you...all are not going to be saved....yet you think the verse in 2pet 3, or 1tim 4 means that God somehow wants or desires all men to be saved,yet either he cannot or will not do anything to make what he wants to happen,happen?
Somehow ....God will not or cannot have His will be done?
I would find that idea very troubling.Simply stated, as I believe scripture shows, that God's desire is that all would come to repentance.
i understand why you might think this,but allow me to ask another question;
if repentance comes from God.....and some do not repent....
Would God want them to repent,then not grant them repentance? I have a very dear friend, who I highly respect that adheres to the Doctrines of Grace. He is one of the most humble people I know.
However, I find the reformed crowd overall to be some of the most arrogant and haughty people around. Not saying that is true of you, just something I've come to see over time.
Anyhow, I will leave it at that.
To God goes ALL the Glory! (and I really do mean all :thumbs
if you have specific questions I will help if i can.
Because God's nature is such that he does not delight in the destruction of the wicked.
It is necessary, but he does not revel in it.
And yet there is a sense in which he does. God is complex infinitely far beyond our comprehension.
Good.
Sure he can be. He can be in the early stages of regeneration. He may not be saved yet but he can be being brought to life spiritually while still in darkness.
To me, Scripture is clear.
Regeneration MUST precede faith. The dead spirit cannot respond to God in faith. It must be regenerated.
This is why I John 5:1 says:
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is [lit. has been] born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
It is why Jesus told Nicodemus that unless one is born again he cannot SEE (perceive, comprehend) the Kingdom of God.
He then said you have to be born again BEFORE you can ENTER the Kingdom.
Entering the Kingdom is salvation.
If being born again must precede entering the Kingdom then being born again must precede salvation.
Don't get me wrong. ALL who are born again will enter the Kingdom but there is a process and being born again precedes entering, and even PERCEIVING the Kingdom.
This is why Paul said- "There is none that understandeth" in Romans 3.
Why? Because you must be regenerated to understand, to SEE the Kingdom. It is not enough that you know that no man can do these miracles that Jesus does unless he be sent from God. You do not perceive the truth fully yet. You CANNOT perceive it until you are born again.
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Some people would say this of Scientists and Philosophers and Lawyers and Politicians- and any other group of people who tend to be of well above average intelligence.
On the other hand "red-necks" are the most arrogant people I have ever known.
People with little to know education who have, intellectually, NOTHING to boast about, yet do not hesitate to tout their ideas- ALL of them- regardless of how intrinsically flawed.
I am a country boy, myself. I live in Mississippi. I have chickens and a garden that fills an acre of land.
I pastor a rural church in a county of about 3,000 people. I like to fish etc...
I like some country music.
So I am not talking about country folks. But "red-necks" who ARE arrogant.
There are plenty of red necks who aren't arrogant- just as you note there are plenty of Calvinists who aren't.
But to me, the HEIGHT of arrogance, is to not know what you are talking about, to have no real education on the matter (and I don't mean necessarily seminary education) and to keep pompously arguing your flawed ideas any way.
Regenerated yet unsaved?! Impossible! Where did you learn that Luke?