Trump Assassination Attempt At Correspondents Dinner

[JonC]

Please understand that I completely respect someone who decides not to support any party or get involved in politics. But I would just suggest a couple of things. First, the "power of this world" has been dealt a fatal blow and will be defeated. Like Bunyan said in Pilgrim's Progress, as long as we are traveling on the King's highway it's Apollyon who needs to beware. Secondly, your values are not always compromised by your primary actions. If you need a policeman, the one who shows up can help you whether he is a Christian, atheist, Moslem or homosexual. God has not required you to worry about that. You are not compromising your values to use the system as it is and as God has ordained it at the time. Overall, I still will work to ensure that all the policemen are not Moslem, for sure, and I will vote strategically as I see fit to ensure that result. Without apology.

I respect anybody decision, insofar as it is their decision to make. Each of us has to decide what is or is not appropriate for ourselves.

I mentioned supporting Muslims for America. They share many of the same values and are politically active to enact those values.

The problem is if you support Muslims for America to support or advance values shared by Christians you also support other aspects of that organization (like Islam). The reason for support does not override the support given.

It is the same with secular politics.

A Christian may support the Democrat Party because they like the way that party cares for the hungry. But they are also supporting late term abortion, LBQ+ "pride",....every point upon which the DNC stands.

Likewise a Chriatian may support the Republican Party because they like the shared values. But they are also supporting abortion (earlier), the normalization of homosexuality, and same sex marriage. Support is as a whole, regardless of the reason that support is given.

I am not talking about refusing help from somebody because of their religion. I am not talking about secular discrimination.

I am talking about actually supporting evil (even if it is to fight against what one views as a greater evil).


Cole Allen made the mistake, somewhere in his life, of not realizing that Christianity + politics = politics.

 

[DaveXR650]

How are you working to ensure that all the policemen are not Muslims? How will strategic voting ensure this result?

Nothing ensures any result. But it is a fact, as more and more people are beginning to understand, that a substantial population percentage of Muslims, or a majority of Muslims, is incompatible with life and Western culture as we know it. I would completely cut off Muslim immigration with very few exceptions, and will vote for candidates that oppose Sharia law, which always follows them getting control of a municipality. So yes, I would compromise and work with coalitions that may not agree with me on every issue in order to accomplish this. Now, I should point out that I know a few Muslims who I would have a difficult time not preferring over some of the left leaning types should they attempt to take over a given area as they have done in some localities. That's where it gets tough. But here is something for all of us to think about. When dealing with the woke and liberal end of the spectrum of Christianity, why does it seem to never be criticized when leftist homosexual groups take over areas like they have in Vermont, or Muslims take over as they have in Dearborn, or all of England; yet someone who advocates standing up for just what used to be basic Western democracy, basic cultural Christianity, suddenly is painted as dangerous, subversive, and racist. Please explain that.

 

[canadyjd]

The extreme rhetoric does stick with the sheeple. None of the extreme rhetoric is actually true.

Both sides (the extremes) try to silence opposition in one way or another. That is why Republicans did not complain when Trump called Democrats "communists" and "Marxists" (even though the Democrat ideology and Marxism is very different) and Democrats did not complain when Pelosi called Trump racist and compared him to Hitler.

The extreme rhetoric itself is a measure to silence opposition.


In an honest system both sides would want to present the opposing side fairly because they believe that they have the better solution.

But that is not what we have. We have two evil parties striving for political power which they recognize as a limited resource, and power is what matters to them.

I agree, mostly

But today’s Democratic Party is not the same as even 25 years ago. Liberalism is not the same as 25 years ago The leadership has moved extreme. The radicals lead the party. People are afraid to speak out.

Only Fetterman, whom I’m starting to like more and more as an old time democrat, will criticize without fear.

Peace to you

 

[Ascetic X]

Cole Allen made the mistake, somewhere in his life, of not realizing that Christianity + politics = politics.

I guess Cole Allen’s alleged Christianity never led him to read this:

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

 

[JonC]

I agree, mostly

But today’s Democratic Party is not the same as even 25 years ago. Liberalism is not the same as 25 years ago The leadership has moved extreme. The radicals lead the party. People are afraid to speak out.

Only Fetterman, whom I’m starting to like more and more as an old time democrat, will criticize without fear.

Peace to you

I agree.

None of the parties are the same as they were 25 years ago. It seems the whole political landscape has moved left in some form.

I guess that is how it has to be as society as a whole has shifted.

 

[JonC]

I guess Cole Allen’s alleged Christianity never led him to read this:

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

It probably did (he actually addressed this in his statements).

When obedience to the government is disobedience to God, which one do you follow?


I am not saying that the shooter was right. He was not.

But if what he believed about Trump was true then his actions could be justified using Christian values.

If you were under the government of Nazi Germany, would you just stand by as people were murdered?

 

[Psalty]

It probably did (he actually addressed this in his statements).

When obedience to the government is disobedience to God, which one do you follow?


I am not saying that the shooter was right. He was not.

But if what he believed about Trump was true then his actions could be justified using Christian values.

If you were under the government of Nazi Germany, would you just stand by as people were murdered?

Ive always struggled with christians and force. Seems to describe fleeing in Matthew 10:23. Seems like in the last days there will be great slaughter of christians, ie, not from war/combat.

 

[Ben1445]

But if what he believed about Trump was true then his actions could be justified using Christian values.

What he did is override the law, declared himself, by his own actions, to be judge, jury, and executioner. He is not being subject to higher powers, he is rebelling against them. I don’t know exactly how you square that with Bible.
He doesn’t have a multitude of witnesses. He has bunch of unsubstantiated hearsay evidence that amounts to nothing more than an emotional reaction.
He is not in a position to have heard the matter properly before answering it. That makes him the fool.
In order to justify his actions by Christian values, you must trample many other biblical principles and truths.

He is unable to verify anything being true.
But even if he could, it is a stretch to say that he has the authority to do anything about it.

 

[Ben1445]

If you were under the government of Nazi Germany, would you just stand by as people were murdered?

And I recognize that they have labeled Trump as hitler as best they can, but we don’t actually live in the same scenario. Where are the concentration camps? Where are the people who are being collected from their homes and businesses?
There are foreign invaders being collected and sent home. That is nothing like holocaust.
The only comparison that can be made is a faulty one.

 

[Ascetic X]

I am not saying that the shooter was right. He was not.

But if what he believed about Trump was true then his actions could be justified using Christian values.

If you were under the government of Nazi Germany, would you just stand by as people were murdered?

It could be justified using Christian values? Are you sure you understand what these values actually are?

Christian values forbid murder.

Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies. Resist not evil. Peter, put away thy sword. Blessed be the peacemakers. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Nero was killing Christians in the first century. No Christians tried to assassinate him.

I find it extremely disturbing to hear you keep proclaiming that Christian values can justify what the shooter wanted to do..

 

[DaveXR650]

What he did is override the law, declared himself, by his own actions, to be judge, jury, and executioner. He is not being subject to higher powers, he is rebelling against them. I don’t know exactly how you square that with Bible.
He doesn’t have a multitude of witnesses. He has bunch of unsubstantiated hearsay evidence that amounts to nothing more than an emotional reaction.
He is not in a position to have heard the matter properly before answering it. That makes him the fool.
In order to justify his actions by Christian values, you must trample many other biblical principles and truths.

Ben, I don't want to speak for Jon but I think he was just observing the train of logic that the shooter had written, not that he agreed with it. I noticed it too and I also noticed that guys like David French have been saying all the things this guy wrote as reasons for his actions. I am not saying that David French, et al, ever advocated that someone do what this guy tried - but I am saying that they argued point by point all the reasons that he gave that he claimed led him to this action.

It's been a couple of days and I have still not seen anything from any of the woke Christianity side suggesting maybe that they cut back on the hyperbole or wild rhetoric. Just look on YouTube if you don't believe me. Christianity Today magazine and French's Washington Post are paywalled, but there is still plenty on YouTube. What I have been saying is that within Reformed Christianity, there is a subset of very radical, woke, people, that are say some things that are shocking and are being completely overlooked.

 

[JonC]

And I recognize that they have labeled Trump as hitler as best they can, but we don’t actually live in the same scenario. Where are the concentration camps? Where are the people who are being collected from their homes and businesses?
There are foreign invaders being collected and sent home. That is nothing like holocaust.
The only comparison that can be made is a faulty one.

I agree that it is a faulty comparison. Trump is not a nazi, not (as far as I can see) a racist, a rapist, a pedophile, or a murderer.

I am not posting negativity about Trump (quite the opposite - I am placing a degree of responsibility for the shooting squarely on the Democrat Party).

My point is....what would YOU do? Would you kill a modern Hitler, a rapist pedophile traitor who is killing innocent people, if it would save people from being murdered? If so, would that be contrary to Christianity?

My answer is I would not because I believe we are responsible for our actions (not the actions of others). But many Christians believe that loving others includes actions of protection.


Thr shooter believes that Trump is a traitor, a murderer, a pedophile and a rapist. Regardless of the accuracy of his beliefs the same values many Christians hold can be applied to his actions.


IF an intruder enters your home, and you see he has a gun, would you shoot him to protect your family? If it turns out the guy was really a friend of one of your family members, did not actually have a gun and was playing a prank would that mean your actions were anti-Christian?

The fault goes to the shooter for several reasons. One is his blending politics with Christianity which opened the door to political indoctrination. But it also goes to political parties that use such extreme rhetoric.

 

[JonC]

It sure sounds like you are justifying what the shooter did.

Christian values forbid murder.

Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies. Resist not evil. Peter, put away thy sword. Blessed be the peacemakers. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Nero was killing Christians in the first century. No Christians tried to assassinate him.

I find it extremely disturbing to hear you keep proclaiming that Christian’s values justify assassination of American presidents.

No. I am not.

I told you my position. What is yours?

If a rapist broke into your home would you murder him or allow him to rape and kill your family members?

From a Christian perspective there are two very legitimate views.

One is that the believer should allow the intruder to rape and kill because that is beyond the Christian's responsibility (it would be wrong to kill the murder entering your home).

Another is that loving your neighbor demands action, and the believer is responsible to protect his family. So inaction implies guilt in that you stood by and allowed your family to be raped and murdered.


I am not defending the shooter. I already said - REPEATEDLY - that he blended Christianity with politics, allowed himself to be ome indoctrinated by a worldly power.

I am, however, saying that his actions do not necessarily negate his faith.


There are true Christians who strongly believe it is right to defend their family against an intruder even if it means the death of the intruder.


Those who would fight by taking up arms against a secular corrupt government guilty of oppression and murder are no less Christian simply because they interpret the situation differently.

 

[JonC]

Where in the New Testament does it say Christians can assassinate bad leaders?

Some Christians would view taking up arms against a leader who is a rapist, a pedophile, and a murder as "loving thy neighbor".

This is an argument some use in a "just war". The idea is that inaction equates to participation.


I understand that you would allow an intruder to enter your home, rape and murder your family, because you fo not want to be guilty of murdering that criminal.

That is how you interpret Scripture. But not all interpret the Bible that way. Some view inaction as participation.

This is an extreme pacifist position vs a more protective position.

 

[JonC]

Ben, I don't want to speak for Jon but I think he was just observing the train of logic that the shooter had written, not that he agreed with it.

Exactly.

I absolutely do not agree with the shooter. He should face the consequences of his actions.

I just view the shooter as also a victim of the demonization of Trump by the Democrat party. I have no reason to think the shooter doubted what he was told (that Trump was a racist, a murderer, a rapist, a pedophile, a traitor, and an imminent danger to our nation). The reason I think he believed this is that he was willing to die based on what he believed as fact.

Given that, we can determine the shooter was wrong but we cannot say that he was not a Christian.

Throughout history Christians have done some pretty awful things based on a faulty belief.

 

[Ascetic X]

I understand that you would allow an intruder to enter your home, rape and murder your family, because you fo not want to be guilty of murdering that criminal.

I never said that. There are non-lethal ways to subdue an intruder. And there is trusting God to keep intruders away.

The topic is assassination, not intruders.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Are Christians in our military who go into combat with the intention of killing the enemy guilty of murder if they do so?

 

[Psalty]

Are Christians in our military who go into combat with the intention of killing the enemy guilty of murder if they do so?

I think this is the insightful question. Can you justify a “just war”? I have looked at the arguments and found them lacking but am unconvinced I have exhausted the issue at all. This would be a good alternate thread to start in the debate forum.

 

[Psalty]

Are Christians in our military who go into combat with the intention of killing the enemy guilty of murder if they do so?

I will also add that in the war where Christians are serving on opposite sides, it seems to present a very difficult situation where Christians could actually be killing Christians

 

[Ascetic X]

Are Christians in our military who go into combat with the intention of killing the enemy guilty of murder if they do so?

In the first century church, no Christians ever joined the military. You cannot love your enemy and bomb them.