Trump Assassination Attempt At Correspondents Dinner

[canadyjd]

……

But if what he believed about Trump was true then his actions could be justified using Christian values……

Not sure which “Christian values” support murder.

If you were under the government of Nazi Germany, would you just stand by as people were murdered?

False Choice between “standing by” (doing nothing) and murder.

God doesn’t need our help to kill people. He has privileged us with joining Him in saving people.

Peace to you

 

[JonC]

I never said that. There are non-lethal ways to subdue an intruder. And there is trusting God to keep intruders away.

The topic is assassination, not intruders.

No, the topic is:

1. Is permissible for a Christian to kill a murdering rapist pedophile in order to save innocent people or must a Christian refrain from doing such harm at the expense of the lives of others and if such abstinence to intervene constitutes guilt in the crimes that will continue.

2. Does the way one answers question #1 negate one's salvation

 

[Ascetic X]

Not sure which “Christian values” support murder.

False Choice between “standing by” (doing nothing) and murder.

God doesn’t need our help to kill people. He has privileged us with joining Him in saving people.

Peace to you

We can never find any New Testament scripture that calls murder or assassination a Christian value.

Christians in the first century did not try to kill emperor Nero who was slaughtering believers. Are the apostles and disciples thereby sharing in the guilt of Nero’s crimes?

Jesus commanded “resist not evil”, (Matthew 5:39) which means refusing to retaliate or return evil for evil, often interpreted as not responding to evil doers with violence or vengeance. It advocates breaking cycles of hatred through love, humility, and non-violent, constructive responses, rather than passive submission.

Christians are not commanded to go around killing all the bad criminals, CEOs, or rulers in the world. When one evil dictator is killed, a worse one tends to take his place.

 

[Ascetic X]

No, the topic is:

1. Is permissible for a Christian to kill a murdering rapist pedophile in order to save innocent people or must a Christian refrain from doing such harm at the expense of the lives of others and if such abstinence to intervene constitutes guilt in the crimes that will continue.

2. Does the way one answers question #1 negate one's salvation

Show us a scripture verse where Jesus commanded us to kill bad people, or tells us that failure to engage in such murder will make us guilty of the crimes that the bad people commit.

It is only the carnal mind that thinks if we just kill all the bad people, the world will be a better place.

Romans 12:21: “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”

 

[canadyjd]

….

My point is....what would YOU do? Would you kill a modern Hitler, a rapist pedophile traitor who is killing innocent people, if it would save people from being murdered?

No

If so, would that be contrary to Christianity?

Yes, very clearly, unambiguously contrary to Christianity.

…..
Thr shooter believes that Trump is a traitor, a murderer, a pedophile and a rapist. Regardless of the accuracy of his beliefs the same values many Christians hold can be applied to his actions.

“The values that Christians hold” is not the same thing as Christian values.

Many Christians embrace same s:x marriage, transgender ideology, mutilating children, divorce, premarital s:x, violence against political opponents, destroying people’s lives that disagree with you… none of which are “Christians values”, but rather satanic values masquerading as Christian’s values.

Peace to you

 

[JonC]

Not sure which “Christian values” support murder.

False Choice between “standing by” (doing nothing) and murder.

God doesn’t need our help to kill people. He has privileged us with joining Him in saving people.

Peace to you

I agree. But misapplying Christian values does not negate one's salvation.

Look at the number of Chriatisns who supported either the Democrat or Republican party. They both supported things contrary to Christian values, but they are still Christian.

I also agree that a Christian who refuses to stop a killer from murdering their family if that would cause the killer's death is not guilty of the murder of his family.

But Christians debate this issue. It is wrong to declare a person is not a Christian because they understand Scripture to command protecting the innocent even at the risk of life to the criminal OR to declare the extreme pacifist is not a Christian because of their beliefs.


My point is the crux of whether the shooter is a Christian who was indoctrinated by the left cannot be determined simply by his actions.

Many Christians believe in the "just war" concept. Many believe killing a modern day Hitler to save innocent people is justified.

I do not. But my (AND YOUR) views on this topic is not the criteria for salvation.


The shooting shows us a few things. It shows the danger of extreme rhetoric. It shows that more and more people are deluded by secular powers.

But to say the shooter is not a Christian because he chose to act to save innocent people he believed were in danger is not a Christian concept.



If we were speaking of a man shooting an intruder to protect his family, and it turns out the intruder was an unarmed man with dementia, this conversation would be different.

I believe this is another example of what I was saying to @DaveXR650 about evidence of a Republican movement to hijack Christianity. The ultimate reason the man cannot possibly be saved is the "rapist, pedophile, murderer" he wanted to kill was Trump.

I say this because I have SEEN IN THIS VERY FORUM Christians saying that pedophiles should be killed. I have seen also that murders and rapists should be killed.


Do I believe they should? No. Do I believe the shooter was wrong? Yes. BUT do I believe he is saved? I do not know. If he is not then many on this board - all who have a heart that would kill pedophiles - are lost.

 

[JonC]

Show us a scripture verse where Jesus commanded us to kill bad people, or tells us that failure to engage in such murder will make us guilty of the crimes that the bad people commit.

It is only the carnal mind that thinks if we just kill all the bad people, the world will be a better place.

Romans 12:21: “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”

???? You do not get it.

I do not think that we should.

But there are Chriatiana who believe in the death penalty. There are Christians who believe in "just wars". There are Christians who believe that pedophiles, rapists, and/or murders should be killed.

Their verse would be "love thy neighbor", among others.

That belief does not, as you suggest, negate salvation. It is a debate among Christians.


It goes back to whether you would shoot a rapist/ murderer who cane in your home and attacked your family. If so - even if you risked your family's life by trying a non-lethal means - you are not showing love to that rapist-murderer. You woukd be showing love to your family (but if given the either-or choice you indicate you would put the welfare of the rapist-murderer over your family).

 

[Ascetic X]

Killing bad people is not the only way to stop their crimes.

Speech is a good indicator of the spiritual reality of a person’s soul.

Saying certain types of bad people should be killed indicates an unsaved soul.

"Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" (Luke 6:45) means a person's words reveal their true inner character, thoughts, and values. Similar to how a tree's fruit reveals its nature, what someone consistently says shows what is stored in their heart. Good people bring good from a good heart, while evil stems from a wicked heart.

 

[JonC]

Killing bad people is not the only way to stop their crimes.

Often it is not. Sometimes it is.

But that is not the point.

The point is that Christians can arrive at two very different conclusions based on the same Christian values. This does not negate their salvation.

George Whitfield supported slavery because of his Christian values. He was wrong. But this does not mean the values he used were wrong. And it does not mean he was not saved.

In the US the Puritians persecuted and killed innocent people out of false beliefs based on Christian values. This does not mean the values behind the misguided actions were not Christian. This does not mean Puritians were not saved.

Tozier neglected his family out of an interpretation of Christian values and a focus on God. The neglect was wrong, but this does not mean the values were wrong or that he was lost.


Christians are still human beings plagued with the human condition in this life. When they inflate politics. mix politics with Christianity, become indoctrinated by a secular political power, and believe the extreme rhetoric, they can act based on their Christian values but controlled by evil. What is politics other than a lack of faith anyway?

 

[Ascetic X]

Often it is not. Sometimes it is.

But that is not the point.

The point is that Christians can arrive at two very different conclusions based on the same Christian values. This does not negate their salvation.

George Whitfield supported slavery because of his Christian values. He was wrong. But this does not mean the values he used were wrong. And it does not mean he was not saved.

In the US the Puritians persecuted and killed innocent people out of false beliefs based on Christian values. This does not mean the values behind the misguided actions were not Christian. This does not mean Puritians were not saved.

Tozier neglected his family out of an interpretation of Christian values and a focus on God. The neglect was wrong, but this does not mean the values were wrong or that he was lost.


Christians are still human beings plagued with the human condition in this life. When they inflate politics. mix politics with Christianity, become indoctrinated by a secular political power, and believe the extreme rhetoric, they can act based on their Christian values but controlled by evil. What is politics other than a lack of faith anyway?

I would like to know what those alleged “Christian values” were that supported slavery, killing innocent people, and neglecting family. To do such things means the values were wrong.

Politics is not lack of faith, it is the mechanics of governing. Politics is not necessarily evil. Romans 13 explains how God ordained government.

Evil deeds cannot ever be based on Christian values. True Christian values oppose evil.

Jesus taught us how to live and how to implement godly morals. Exploiting labor, murder, and neglecting family are not involved.

 

[DaveXR650]

What is politics other than a lack of faith anyway?

It is how, in our day and age we chose who will be the "magistrate" and governing authorities in scripture. It does not mean it's a result of a lack of faith. Somehow in every human society, someone will decide these things. In the past it was usually warfare combined with a general recognition of most of the people left that it was better to acquiesce to someone's rule. Politics is more of a stylized warfare and the goal is to avoid actual conflict. Christians are required to "as much as lieth in you" to live at peace with all men. Our goal should be that whatever government is in charge, we should be the last people they need to worry about.

What I fear is that over the years we have such widely divergent ideas and such building hatreds, and that, combined with a basic lessening of a desire for the health and welfare of our neighbors does not bode well for politics being sufficient for continued domestic tranquility. And as an old person, I feel that many younger people don't have a clue just how hard it is to develop and maintain even the imperfect and unjust society that we have - and how easy it is to glibly call for tearing everything down.

 

[canadyjd]

I agree. But misapplying Christian values does not negate one's salvation.

If you are in a right relationship with God (saved), you cannot lose it.

You can, however, grieve God Holy Spirit. You can receive the discipline of God upon His Children. You give the enemies of God great occasion to blaspheme His Holy Name. You can bring shame to the cause of Christ in the world

Look at the number of Chriatisns who supported either the Democrat or Republican party. They both supported things contrary to Christian values, but they are still Christian.

Ok

I also agree that a Christian who refuses to stop a killer from murdering their family if that would cause the killer's death is not guilty of the murder of his family.

The head of a household has a God given responsibility to protect his family to the best of his ability. But, he is “not guilty” if he doesn’t act

But Christians debate this issue. It is wrong to declare a person is not a Christian because they understand Scripture to command protecting the innocent even at the risk of life to the criminal OR to declare the extreme pacifist is not a Christian because of their beliefs.

I don’t declare anyone to be “saved” or “unsaved” because that would require I be able to look inside them to find the presence of God Holy, Who is the mark of a right relationship with God.

My point is the crux of whether the shooter is a Christian who was indoctrinated by the left cannot be determined simply by his actions.

His actions can certainly be judged as whether they are consistent with the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles. They are not.

Many Christians believe in the "just war" concept. Many believe killing a modern day Hitler to save innocent people is justified.

They do

I do not. But my (AND YOUR) views on this topic is not the criteria for salvation.

Correct

The shooting shows us a few things. It shows the danger of extreme rhetoric. It shows that more and more people are deluded by secular powers.

Agreed

But to say the shooter is not a Christian because he chose to act to save innocent people he believed were in danger is not a Christian concept.

To say he was attempting kill innocent people to save innocent people is not a Christian concept.

If we were speaking of a man shooting an intruder to protect his family, and it turns out the intruder was an unarmed man with dementia, this conversation would be different.

And an infinite hypothetical world awaits that would all be a different conversation.

I believe this is another example of what I was saying to @DaveXR650 about evidence of a Republican movement to hijack Christianity.

Or… evangelical Christianity hyjacking a very secular Republican Party.

The ultimate reason the man cannot possibly be saved is the "rapist, pedophile, murderer" he wanted to kill was Trump.

You really should stop repeating the propaganda about the POTUS. I know you are sort of quoting this man, but it’s still unseemly to give it voice.

I say this because I have SEEN IN THIS VERY FORUM Christians saying that pedophiles should be killed. I have seen also that murders and rapists should be killed.

Yes, I have seen that as well, and have been accused of bring a liberal sissy, loving peados and all sorts of nonsense for disagreeing.

Do I believe they should? No. Do I believe the shooter was wrong? Yes. BUT do I believe he is saved? I do not know. If he is not then many on this board - all who have a heart that would kill pedophiles - are lost.

Your point is well taken and plainly revealed at last.

Those who deny the possibility this man is saved do not see the hypocrisy of their support for killing paedos…

I am never opposed this Christians examining themselves to see if they are walking in a manner worthy of our Lord Jesus

Peace to you

 

[Ascetic X]

I can affirm that this shooter is not a Christian.

I John 3:15

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.