Truth, lies, and video tape :-)

[JonC]

link?

The angelic, pure and peaceable nature of his performances aside, don't you believe in the influence of the Devil? We're told that men outside of Christ are taken captive by him at his will.

So whether or not the name change came to him while using a Ouija board, it is not a lie for a man to state his opinion that the name change was influenced by the Devil. It may be an ill-advised statement. Might be wacko. Might be devilish itself like Cooper's decorum on stage, but you shouldn't accuse people who make judgments with which you disagree "liars."

LOL. No one has to listen to him long to come to that conclusion. In fact, one must glean from Stanley's verbosity obscure evidence to the contrary. Stanley is neither worth listening to nor defending.

Again, you're simply engaging in ad hominem to call these people liars

Government conspiracy theorists really believe it. They're not lying.

You argue like a Dem in politics. "Cutting school funding will kill children! Question: Should we kill children?!" (Well...at least the way they argued in the nineties. We now know they've been the ones wanting to kill children all along.)

BTW, shoulda called this thread "Sects, Lies and Videotape."

Apparently something "hit home"

I have not argued anything. You asked for examples. And no, I will not give you a link. That was from my experience from a SBC church when I was a teenager (and "Another One Bites the Dust", if played backwards, says "It's fun to smoke marijuana" ).

The beat of contemporary contemporary music originated from voodoo witchcraft (@Revmitchell mentioned this, and it is something I've also heard growing up....and with CoC friends).

 

[Aaron]

I have not argued anything. You asked for examples.

okay, you post like Dems.

 

[JonC]

okay, you post like Dems.

Yep...like dem Christians

 

[MartyF]

Torture works. Does it work every time? No. Most times? Yes.

Seems like a pipe dream to me.

I'd like to know. Give one major historical event where concrete evidence shows that evil was stopped with torture when it wasn't able to be stopped any other way.

This How Torture Helped Win WWII , for example, is not a concrete example. It's not based on facts, but conjecture. In fact, anytime the details are examined, torture looks more and more like an infantile way to obtain information.

 

[Reynolds]

Seems like a pipe dream to me.

I'd like to know. Give one major historical event where concrete evidence shows that evil was stopped with torture when it wasn't able to be stopped any other way.

This How Torture Helped Win WWII , for example, is not a concrete example. It's not based on facts, but conjecture. In fact, anytime the details are examined, torture looks more and more like an infantile way to obtain information.

If it didn't work, militaries and intelligence agencies wouldn't do it. I know cases where it has worked and worked quickly. Mexican Federeles extract in formation Mich more quickly than we do with our methods. I won't comment further on that example.

 

[MB]

Yes, I have learned this lesson very well. People can certainly hurt and disappoint.

These were just a few examples. The first example was when I was a teen and I did believe some of what was presented then. Each time what was told had a purpose, but they were not exactly true.

This is what happens with gossip. The gossip picks up more as it rolls down so to speak. Only what it picks up is so far from the truth that it can destroy the heart of the victim. Gossip is why most will not confess because when it starts it can be harmless but as it progresses it can only get worse. Seems everyone has something to add. Seems every listener has to add his own comments and every listener try's to out do the one who told it to them.
MB

 

[MartyF]

If it didn't work, militaries and intelligence agencies wouldn't do it. I know cases where it has worked and worked quickly. Mexican Federeles extract in formation Mich more quickly than we do with our methods. I won't comment further on that example.

When was the last time the U.S military won a war?

How successful has the CIA been? Ever read Legacy of Ashes?

How successful have the Mexican Federales been?

Without thinking, you seem to have gone out of your way to support my reasoning.

Thank you.

PS - You still haven’t given any concrete examples.

 

[OldArmy]

Did Jesus ever lie? Is he not who we follow?

 

[Reynolds]

When was the last time the U.S military won a war?

How successful has the CIA been? Ever read Legacy of Ashes?

How successful have the Mexican Federales been?

Without thinking, you seem to have gone out of your way to support my reasoning.

Thank you.

PS - You still haven’t given any concrete examples.

The CIA does not torture in the sense I refer to torture. The Federales have been very suxcessful at extracting information. Mossad would be your best example.
I know the Federales extracted info was good.

 

[Reynolds]

Did Jesus ever lie? Is he not who we follow?

Read Joshua 8. Pure deception directly commanded by God.

 

[agedman]

I will restate in hope that illumination can be brought to some.

the Bible does not present one has a freedom to choose eternal life.

Moses told of keeping the law that the people would continue to live and thrive in the land. He did not offer eternal life. It was not His to offer. Beside, we all know how that offer turned out.

"There is NONE righteous..." includes not being able to choose righteousness.

What "freedom of choice/will" does the unregenerate heathen have? They, as the Lord said, know how to give GOOD gifts, not perfect gifts. All perfect gifts come from the Father.

How does faith come? By hearing.
And how is hearing brought? By the Word.
Who is the Word? The Lord Jesus Christ.

But then why do not all who hear understand and be saved?

Romans 10:

14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

18But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

19But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”

20Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

21But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”​

Notice, What Paul says of those who did not seek and did not ask? They were found and they were shown.

People seek a sign, something tangible, something creedal, something from which to appease. But nothing of human choice can be made to impact where one spends eternity.

Both Arm. Remonstrance and Calvinistic points agree that without the direct purposed intervention causing that person to be claimed as an adopted son by the Father, there is absolutely no "freedom of the will/choice" found. There just is not such freedom available.

To consider such is a human attribute, a human volition, is a lie.

Jesus is recorded in John 10 as stating:

1“Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever does not enter the sheepfold by the gate, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2But the one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen for his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will flee from him because they do not recognize his voice.”
...
“Truly, truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who came before Me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
...
14I am the good shepherd. I know My sheep and My sheep know Me, 15just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.
...​

At winter time during what we might view as the Christmas holiday season, and the Jews now celebrate as Hanukkah, Jesus stated this :

26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

​

Now some will stretch to proclaim that the folks had a choice to believe or not.

But not a single place in all John 10 is choice the matter of determination.

One is chosen by God (Father) or not. One is adopted by God (Father) or not. One has no "choice" in either the choosing or adoption.

Freedom of the will/choice when it comes to eternal life is not part of the sinful human capacity other than to remain obstinate in rejection of the truth. Just as the Lord pointed out in Chapter 10 of John.

Remaining obstinate in rejection does NOT show or present that folks had the ability to escape the obstinate rejection. Just as Adam hid from God, all hide for all have sinned.

 

[OldArmy]

Read Joshua 8. Pure deception directly commanded by God.

I don't have the time to read that right now, but let's just say "okay". If God gave a clear command, that's not applicable here short of yourself recieving a clear command from God to do so, right?

Sooo, back to the point of our perfect example...

 

[Reynolds]

I don't have the time to read that right now, but let's just say "okay". If God gave a clear command, that's not applicable here short of yourself recieving a clear command from God to do so, right?

Sooo, back to the point of our perfect example...

No. You can't dismiss it that easy. You could have read Joshua 8 in the time it took you to say you didn't have time to read it.

 

[agedman]

I question if deception is always a lie.

For example, the moral law states “don’t bear false witness” that is, don’t lie.

But does that apply to only the verbalize testimony of a crime, or event that has already occurred?

Or does that include that which is plotted and planned?

Is one required to Telegraph their plans, as a turn signal indicator on a car, to warn, so others can prepare?

When is deception not a lie according to Scripture standards?

Ehud murdered by deceiving. Was he wrong in doing so?

Rehab deceived. Was she wrong?

Of course one can use, “for the greater good,” thinking, but then such thinking can excuse all manner of evil. Do not folks actually commonly use this thinking for “social reasons? Abortion rights, sodomy rights, race rights, political rights, ...

The Scriptures in multiple places declare that a person of deceit will not be viewed with kindness by God.

However, those references are concerning the ongoing, repetitive, deceit. One who consistently used deceit for gain.

Where do you draw that line?


On a side note:
Robert Reynold Jones was a great evangelist. He was a remarkable man of character, love, and faith. Though now long dead, his work continues for Christ around the World.

It is he that originated the statement, “It is never right to do wrong in order to get a chance to do right.”

For your interest, here is a link to some of his other “chapel sayings.” Though I do hold him as esteemed, I do not puff him up, but show where the saying originated.

 

[MartyF]

No. You can't dismiss it that easy. You could have read Joshua 8 in the time it took you to say you didn't have time to read it.

Gimme a break.

Withdrawing part of your force from battle is not the same as lying.

At least give a better passage like 1 Kings 22.

 

[MartyF]

I know the Federales extracted info was good.

No, you don’t. You don’t know diddly and still haven’t given a single concrete example.

And since you’ve stated lying to win an argument is ok, I really don’t see why you think I should ever believe you.

 

[Reynolds]

Gimme a break.

Withdrawing part of your force from battle is not the same as lying.

At least give a better passage like 1 Kings 22.

It's straight up deception just as laying in ambush is straight up deception.

 

[Reynolds]

No, you don’t. You don’t know diddly and still haven’t given a single concrete example.

And since you’ve stated lying to win an argument is ok, I really don’t see why you think I should ever believe you.

Where did I say lying to win an argument is OK? If you can't quote my post in which I said that then you sir are the liar.