Truth, lies, and video tape :-)

[Van]

Is it ever appropriate for a Christian to lie about another Christian if that other is wrong?

This seems to be a reoccurring thing on this forum. People think that it is alright to lie about other people if that other person is opposed to what they believe is correct doctrine.

It may seem a rhetorical and trolling topic at the start….but think about it.

If a Christian is advocating a false doctrine that may mislead other Christians, is it OK to lie about that person in order to save the other person from error?

My answer is "no". The ends do not justify the means. But I've observed this exact thing occurring over again on the BB (whether with historical figures like John Calvin and Wesley or more contemporary persons like Andy Stanley and John MacArthur).

I believe that we are called to a high (to the highest) degree of integrity come what may.

But what if a lie would save another from going down a wrong path?

The "Enabling Scenario" is concocted to justify wrong doing. The old "it is ok to torture a guy for the location of a nuke to save a million lives" routine.

Satan is the father of lies.

As my Pastor used to say, "It is never right to do wrong to get a chance to do right."

 

[Reynolds]

The "Enabling Scenario" is concocted to justify wrong doing. The old "it is ok to torture a guy for the location of a nuke to save a million lives" routine.

Satan is the father of lies.

As my Pastor used to say, "It is never right to do wrong to get a chance to do right."

I would brutally torture a man to save the lives of a million men. If someone kidnapped my son and I caught him and he did not have my son with him, I would torture him to save the life of my son. If need be, I would torture him in ways that would make a serial killer blush in shame.

My pastor used to have the same opinion as your pastor. After I pinned him down on Rehab, he now has my view. Your pastor is to heavenly minded to be of any earthly good.

 

[Reynolds]

There is a story of a Christian fishing family in the Netherlands who were involved in smuggling Jews to safe locations. They were preparing to smuggle a Jewish family out of the Netherlands, when they were approached by Nazi soldiers as they were preparing leave the pier in their boat. They had Jews hiding under tarps and nets and other equipment in the bottom of their boat. The Nazis asked them if they were alone in the boat and they said they were. They were asked three times total as the Nazis did a visual inspection and each time they lied and said they were the only people on the boat.

So should they have told the truth and given up the Jews, to the Nazis knowing that not only would the Jews be killed, but their fishing business would be shut down and every member of the family sent to a concentration camp? Or were they right to deceive the Nazis?

It's quite obvious they were right. Just as the Germans who hid Jews were right.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Is it ever appropriate for a Christian to lie about another Christian if that other is wrong?
---
But what if a lie would save another from going down a wrong path?

God does not need or want our lies.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I was thinking about some issues I experienced as a teenager as well. Looking back, some of the things that were said about music may not have been completely truthful. But the idea was to frighten my age group from allowing into their lives what may be damaging influences.

My friends and I heard a lot of that nonsense and recognized many lies told from the pulpit and popular Christian books. What was the effect? The effect was to doubt the credibility of Christian leaders, the Christian faith, and take the side of the musicians who were being falsely accused.

God does not need our want our lies.

The only upside to that experience was that when my faith was eventually restored, thanks to the grace of God, I was quite skeptical of many of the popular "social issues" books and would research every footnote to determine whether or not the book was true. That's one of the things that tipped me off to the deception of David Barton and the "Christian America" movement that became popular in the 1990s.

 

[Baptist Believer]

But was it lies? I think it was more a case of honest mistakes.

In the cases I experienced, they were obviously lies. I also talked to my pastor regarding the falsehood he was telling from the pulpit, explaining that I thought he was making good points about the immorality of much of the music, but he was using false information to make his points.

His response? He reamed me out for daring to point out errors and "trying to justify my sin." Frankly, I really didn't care for most of the groups he attacked. I learned that the pastor was not someone who could be trusted to love the truth.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In the cases I experienced, they were obviously lies. I also talked to my pastor regarding the falsehood he was telling from the pulpit, explaining that I thought he was making good points about the immorality of much of the music, but he was using false information to make his points.

His response? He reamed me out for daring to point out errors and "trying to justify my sin." Frankly, I really didn't care for most of the groups he attacked. I learned that the pastor was not someone who could be trusted to love the truth.

Ooohhh

 

[MB]

My principle is that “it is never right to do wrong.”

No matter the motivation or even purpose, wrong is wrong.

There was a thread not long ago addressing this when it came to police tactical use of a lie.

The bottom line is if I cannot trust the enforcers of law (executive), the makers of law (legislative), the determinators of applicability of law (judicial), then how is the law not become void?

The Lord Jesus Christ met this problem of liers head on and gave the motivation behind the manifestation:

“If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.44You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.46Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”​

I consider the most devastating lie that which is preached by many. That preaching that states that out of human will one may accept or reject salvation.

Not a single human has not lied. Who is that human’s father?

Yet, preachers are so enamored with the lie that humans have free will they would spread the false narratives and even invent and construct some non-Biblical grace to support that lie.

“It is never right to do wrong.”

I just wonder do you feel better now you've gotten that off your chest. Having choice is what scripture states and you deny it. It's a God given right to choose life or death all you need to do is accept it. What I believe is no more a lie than what you believe.
MB

 

[MB]

About doing a wrong in order to do right. I would lie like the devil to save my loved one's from an assassin. Besides I've never met anyone who doesn't lie at some point
MB

 

[Aaron]

Is it ever appropriate for a Christian to lie about another Christian if that other is wrong?

This seems to be a reoccurring thing on this forum. People think that it is alright to lie about other people if that other person is opposed to what they believe is correct doctrine.

It may seem a rhetorical and trolling topic at the start….but think about it.

If a Christian is advocating a false doctrine that may mislead other Christians, is it OK to lie about that person in order to save the other person from error?

My answer is "no". The ends do not justify the means. But I've observed this exact thing occurring over again on the BB (whether with historical figures like John Calvin and Wesley or more contemporary persons like Andy Stanley and John MacArthur).

I believe that we are called to a high (to the highest) degree of integrity come what may.

But what if a lie would save another from going down a wrong path?

Give an example.

 

[JonC]

Give an example.

We were told that Vincent Furnier changed his name to Alice Cooper at the request of demonic forces that influenced his music.

It has been said Andy Stanley wants to unhitch from the Old Testament.

I have heard preachers declare Billy Graham as a satanic freemason.

 

[Reynolds]

In the cases I experienced, they were obviously lies. I also talked to my pastor regarding the falsehood he was telling from the pulpit, explaining that I thought he was making good points about the immorality of much of the music, but he was using false information to make his points.

His response? He reamed me out for daring to point out errors and "trying to justify my sin." Frankly, I really didn't care for most of the groups he attacked. I learned that the pastor was not someone who could be trusted to love the truth.

The pastors I knew were sincere but had received misinformation.

 

[MB]

We were told that Vincent Furnier changed his name to Alice Cooper at the request of demonic forces that influenced his music.

It has been said Andy Stanley wants to unhitch from the Old Testament.

I have heard preachers declare Billy Graham as a satanic freemason.

I wouldn't believe everything you've heard. Besides no one is perfect except Jesus Christ.
We could sit around and gossip all day long but really what good would come of it? I can't help it I hate gossip even though I myself have been known to say a few negative words about people from time to time. When it is you the gossip is about you really find out who are really your friends.
MB

 

[JonC]

I wouldn't believe everything you've heard. Besides no one is perfect except Jesus Christ.
We could sit around and gossip all day long but really what good would come of it? I can't help it I hate gossip even though I myself have been known to say a few negative words about people from time to time. When it is you the gossip is about you really find out who are really your friends.
MB

Yes, I have learned this lesson very well. People can certainly hurt and disappoint.

These were just a few examples. The first example was when I was a teen and I did believe some of what was presented then. Each time what was told had a purpose, but they were not exactly true.

 

[Van]

I would brutally torture a man to save the lives of a million men. If someone kidnapped my son and I caught him and he did not have my son with him, I would torture him to save the life of my son. If need be, I would torture him in ways that would make a serial killer blush in shame.

My pastor used to have the same opinion as your pastor. After I pinned him down on Rehab, he now has my view. Your pastor is to heavenly minded to be of any earthly good.

My view is biblical, you view is not.

 

[Reynolds]

My view is biblical, you view is not.

I would say that it is more Biblical to save an innocent life than to spare the life of an evil man.
How do you fit the death angel sent to Egypt into your Biblical interpretation?

 

[Van]

Sir, the ends never justify the means. Otherwise, someone can justify anything. Jesus taught we should always do what is right.

 

[MartyF]

I would brutally torture a man to save the lives of a million men. If someone kidnapped my son and I caught him and he did not have my son with him, I would torture him to save the life of my son. If need be, I would torture him in ways that would make a serial killer blush in shame.

My pastor used to have the same opinion as your pastor. After I pinned him down on Rehab, he now has my view. Your pastor is to heavenly minded to be of any earthly good.

Torturing can work but many times it doesn't. Notice how many Baptists and Christians it did not work against. The Nazi's and Stalin happily tortured their victims. With all of the WWII documentaries out there, I haven't seen a single one where torture "saved" the day. If someone is capable of planting a nuke, they are also quite capable of giving false information until time runs out and the nuke goes off.

Matthew 10:16 NLT
“Look, I am sending you out as sheep among wolves. So be as shrewd as snakes and harmless as doves.

One needs to be smart about what to do and although I can't find a passage specifically against torture, I will point out who are the ones who have historically done torture as well as point out their lack of success in doing anything but causing pain. In addition, not one time in the Old Testament does the Bible condone a cruel torturous death as was common with ancient cultures at the time.

I believe there is a reason to have self-defense and I won't go so far as some do to say that all killing is wrong.

Luke 3:10-14 NLT
[10]The crowds asked, “What should we do?”
[11] John replied, “If you have two shirts, give one to the poor. If you have food, share it with those who are hungry.”
[12] Even corrupt tax collectors came to be baptized and asked, “Teacher, what should we do?”
[13] He replied, “Collect no more taxes than the government requires.”
[14] “What should we do?” asked some soldiers. John replied, “Don’t extort money or make false accusations. And be content with your pay.”

I include the other verses because some claimed that that John's replies were not vocation specific and from the full passage, this is clearly not the case. Obviously, John did not have a problem with soldiers doing their job which at times included defending themselves and killing people. But Roman soldiers also gave lashes and crucified people. Why was extorting money the thing John brought up? In any case, I have difficulty finding clear cut passages to condemn your hypothetical, but I feel that there will probably be a better way in reality than torture.

 

[Reynolds]

Torturing can work but many times it doesn't. Notice how many Baptists and Christians it did not work against. The Nazi's and Stalin happily tortured their victims. With all of the WWII documentaries out there, I haven't seen a single one where torture "saved" the day. If someone is capable of planting a nuke, they are also quite capable of giving false information until time runs out and the nuke goes off.

Matthew 10:16 NLT
“Look, I am sending you out as sheep among wolves. So be as shrewd as snakes and harmless as doves.

One needs to be smart about what to do and although I can't find a passage specifically against torture, I will point out who are the ones who have historically done torture as well as point out their lack of success in doing anything but causing pain. In addition, not one time in the Old Testament does the Bible condone a cruel torturous death as was common with ancient cultures at the time.

I believe there is a reason to have self-defense and I won't go so far as some do to say that all killing is wrong.

Luke 3:10-14 NLT
[10]The crowds asked, “What should we do?”
[11] John replied, “If you have two shirts, give one to the poor. If you have food, share it with those who are hungry.”
[12] Even corrupt tax collectors came to be baptized and asked, “Teacher, what should we do?”
[13] He replied, “Collect no more taxes than the government requires.”
[14] “What should we do?” asked some soldiers. John replied, “Don’t extort money or make false accusations. And be content with your pay.”

I include the other verses because some claimed that that John's replies were not vocation specific and from the full passage, this is clearly not the case. Obviously, John did not have a problem with soldiers doing their job which at times included defending themselves and killing people. But Roman soldiers also gave lashes and crucified people. Why was extorting money the thing John brought up? In any case, I have difficulty finding clear cut passages to condemn your hypothetical, but I feel that there will probably be a better way in reality than torture.

Torture works. Does it work every time? No. Most times? Yes.

 

[Aaron]

We were told that Vincent Furnier changed his name to Alice Cooper at the request of demonic forces that influenced his music.

link?

The angelic, pure and peaceable nature of his performances aside, don't you believe in the influence of the Devil? We're told that men outside of Christ are taken captive by him at his will.

So whether or not the name change came to him while using a Ouija board, it is not a lie for a man to state his opinion that the name change was influenced by the Devil. It may be an ill-advised statement. Might be wacko. Might be devilish itself like Cooper's decorum on stage, but you shouldn't accuse people who make judgments with which you disagree "liars."

It has been said Andy Stanley wants to unhitch from the Old Testament

LOL. No one has to listen to him long to come to that conclusion. In fact, one must glean from Stanley's verbosity obscure evidence to the contrary. Stanley is neither worth listening to nor defending.

Again, you're simply engaging in ad hominem to call these people liars

I have heard preachers declare Billy Graham as a satanic freemason.

Government conspiracy theorists really believe it. They're not lying.

You argue like a Dem in politics. "Cutting school funding will kill children! Question: Should we kill children?!" (Well...at least the way they argued in the nineties. We now know they've been the ones wanting to kill children all along.)

BTW, shoulda called this thread "Sects, Lies and Videotape."