TULIP for Real Life

[SovereignGrace]

@Rockson

Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. Psalm 78:41


NASB--Tempted
AMP--tempted
CSB--tested
NIV--put God to the test
CEB--tested
ESV--tested
Geneva--tempted
ISV--tested
MSG--pushed Him to the limit(ugh!)
NLT--tested

Seems like the ole KJV's usage of 'limited' was a poor choice of a word.

 

[Rockson]

@atpollard

@Rockson does think very highly of himself. Just read his post directed @Dave Gilbert

Well of course SG that's just a given you want to throw stones, mock and make light of me. So did individuals in Col 2:18 who claimed they had more humility before God than others but Paul told readers don't be beguiled by their condescending attitude. It most certainly wasn't the same subject and theme we're discussing here today but the same principle is involved.

You can boast all you want that you possess a humility I don't have which you do towards anyone not Calvinistic but I most certainly and with respect reject your claim. It won't be the first time people have made such a accusation towards another even in the Bible. David's brothers in 1 Sam 17: 28 mocked him for his claiming he could slay Goliath and considered he was thinking to highly of himself,

When Eliab, David’s oldest brother, heard him speaking with the men, he burned with anger at him and asked, “Why have you come down here? And with whom did you leave those few sheep in the wilderness? I know how conceited you are and how wicked your heart is; you came down only to watch the battle.” 1 Sam 17:28

.....and in Num 14:10 the people of Israel who YES limited God wanted to stone Caleb and Joshua for thinking too highly of themselves for thinking they could go into the Promised Land.

 

[Rockson]

@Rockson

Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. Psalm 78:41


NASB--Tempted
AMP--tempted
CSB--tested
NIV--put God to the test
CEB--tested
ESV--tested
Geneva--tempted
ISV--tested
MSG--pushed Him to the limit(ugh!)
NLT--tested

Seems like the ole KJV's usage of 'limited' was a poor choice of a word.

A poor choice of a word in the King James? Well how can that be seeing everywhere I go I'm told by people of your persuasion that the King James was translated by Calvinists? But here a few others before commenting on your list.

Yea, they turn back, and try God, And the Holy One of Israel have limited [YLT]

Yes, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. [WBT]

And they turned back and tempted God and limited the Holy One of Israel. [JB2000]

And still again they tried God, And set bounds to the Holy One of Israel. [JPS Tanakh]

Now let's look at your list...they tempted or tested God? YES ....he told them he wanted them to go into the Promised Land and they refused. They limited him in not making it possible to bless them! How you can fight, fuss and demand these people didn't limit God from what he wanted to do and how he wanted to bless them is beyond any reasonable comprehension.

In the New Testament we see where Jesus own disciples were limiting God. A demon possessed boy was brought to the disciples to cast the spirit out and the Father says they could not. His disciples were rebuked for he had given them authority to do such in Mk 6:7 but their unbelief limited God's power from being released. Jesus said, "You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you?” Mk 9: 19

Interestingly enough there's another time GOD says the same words and that is back in Num 14:10 when the people would not go into the land so God could bless them! They complained and God said NO they won't go into the land except for Joshua and Caleb a generation later. If you won't accept these clear examples of God being limited to what he'd like to do than what else can I say. I'll leave it up to the readers to decide.

 

[Rockson]

Yeah, poor little weak God. He can best Satan and his minions, make everything we see ex nihilo, set boundaries for the water, hang the stars where He wants them to be, and yet this 98-pound weakling is thwarted by us heap big people!!

You mock and marginalize the status that God has given man. You might want to reconsider that.

When I consider your heavens,the work of your fingers,the moon and the stars,which you have set in place,what is mankind that you are mindful of them,human beings that you care for them?c
You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor.
You made them rulers over the works of your hands;you put everything under their feet:
all flocks and herds,and the animals of the wild,the birds in the sky,and the fish in the sea,
all that swim the paths of the seas. Psalm 8: 3-8

The rest is not worth discussing, imo.

Well fair enough SG and no offense but that's why for the most part I pass by your posts without bothering to discuss them so I guess we're on the same page there. Have a good day.

 

[loDebar]

God does not thwart Free Will, He allows use to make our choices or else there would not be sin.
Free Will to follow God or not.

 

[Yeshua1]

There is a HUGE difference between “no partiality” (salvation of some from every nation and not just the chosen children of Israel) and “complete fairness” (universal salvation or universal damnation of every individual).

IF God would be totally "fair" with all of us here, we would still be rushing head long into hell!

 

[loDebar]

We are unless the pardon is accepted.

He did not have to save us. Why would He choose some and not others.? He will not violate Free Will . If He did, one can blame God for going to Hell.

Calvinism does that

 

[Yeshua1]

We are unless the pardon is accepted.

He did not have to save us. Why would He choose some and not others.? He will not violate Free Will . If He did, one can blame God for going to Hell.

Calvinism does that

Do you really want to ahve your salvation viewpoint and try to make sure God comes around to that view, like you would be instructing him on he should have done it?

 

[loDebar]

Of course I choose this viewpoint, It is scriptural and agrees with the character of God and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Rom 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shallbe saved.
Rom 10:14¶
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things
Rom 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rev 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

He has provided Salvation to all , It is up to us to receive It. The invitation is still open

 

[atpollard]

Of course I choose this viewpoint, It is scriptural and agrees with the character of God and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Rom 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shallbe saved.
Rom 10:14¶
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things
Rom 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rev 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

He has provided Salvation to all , It is up to us to receive It. The invitation is still open

I like the way you have articulated your position. It reminds me of many good people at the Church of God (Anderson, Indiana) who first taught me to love scripture. Let me ask you the same question that I struggled with when I started reading scripture for myself ... what do you make of these events:

[John 10:24-33 NIV]
24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."​

The people are asking Jesus to tell them plainly if He is the Messiah. The heart of Jesus' reply is "You do not believe" BECAUSE "you are not my sheep." Even as a new Christian, I caught that Jesus did not say "You people don't belong to me because you will not believe", rather Jesus turns the cause and effect around. They are already not His people (sheep) and THAT is why they do not believe.

Jesus then goes on to prove the point by actually telling them plainly ... Jesus went on in his explanation to claim that the difference between "His sheep" and "not His sheep" is that the Father gave Jesus His sheep ... and they (not his sheep) react by trying to stone him to death.

[John 6:37-44 NIV] 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." 41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?" 43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.​

Again we start out with Jesus teaching on the emphasis that it is the Father that gives people (His sheep) to Jesus. "ALL those that the Father gives ... WILL come". Now I know that there is a debate about Jesus keeping and people jumping out of his hand ... so let's skip over that discussion for now. It is not as important as "the Father gives" to the Son.

Now I see the verses about the Father's will (John 6:40) and I rejoice with you. However immediately after that comes the grumbling people to whom Jesus replies "Stop your grumbling ... no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them". Didn't Jesus just tell these people to stop complaining because they were not His, and they were not His because the Father had not drawn them?


It seemed to me to be all well and good to talk about what God wants in some abstract sense, but when Jesus was actually dealing with real people, he didn't always seem to act like all were being drawn by the Father and needed to choose well. Jesus seemed to treat people as belonging to one of two groups. His sheep who were drawn by His Father and the goats that were not His and were not going to listen. Jesus had infinite patience with His sheep, and little patience with goats.

How have I misunderstood these events narrated in the scripture?

 

[loDebar]

The drawing of the Father, then the Holy Spirit is necessary to hearing and then believing. It is universal today as compared before Jesus death. Certainly, Calvinism negates the work of the Holy Spirit to draw men .
The sequence again:

Rom 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14
¶
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18¶
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

hearing, believing, (faith) calling for Salvation

This is not abstract but application directly of Scripture and Doctrine.

Those verse of sheep and goats, elect and (non-elect) are after salvation choices have been made.

 

[Yeshua1]

I like the way you have articulated your position. It reminds me of many good people at the Church of God (Anderson, Indiana) who first taught me to love scripture. Let me ask you the same question that I struggled with when I started reading scripture for myself ... what do you make of these events:

[John 10:24-33 NIV]
24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."​

The people are asking Jesus to tell them plainly if He is the Messiah. The heart of Jesus' reply is "You do not believe" BECAUSE "you are not my sheep." Even as a new Christian, I caught that Jesus did not say "You people don't belong to me because you will not believe", rather Jesus turns the cause and effect around. They are already not His people (sheep) and THAT is why they do not believe.

Jesus then goes on to prove the point by actually telling them plainly ... Jesus went on in his explanation to claim that the difference between "His sheep" and "not His sheep" is that the Father gave Jesus His sheep ... and they (not his sheep) react by trying to stone him to death.

[John 6:37-44 NIV] 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." 41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?" 43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.​

Again we start out with Jesus teaching on the emphasis that it is the Father that gives people (His sheep) to Jesus. "ALL those that the Father gives ... WILL come". Now I know that there is a debate about Jesus keeping and people jumping out of his hand ... so let's skip over that discussion for now. It is not as important as "the Father gives" to the Son.

Now I see the verses about the Father's will (John 6:40) and I rejoice with you. However immediately after that comes the grumbling people to whom Jesus replies "Stop your grumbling ... no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them". Didn't Jesus just tell these people to stop complaining because they were not His, and they were not His because the Father had not drawn them?


It seemed to me to be all well and good to talk about what God wants in some abstract sense, but when Jesus was actually dealing with real people, he didn't always seem to act like all were being drawn by the Father and needed to choose well. Jesus seemed to treat people as belonging to one of two groups. His sheep who were drawn by His Father and the goats that were not His and were not going to listen. Jesus had infinite patience with His sheep, and little patience with goats.

How have I misunderstood these events narrated in the scripture?

The sheep are the ones elected out beforehand by God the father, whom jesus died for, and whom the Spirit brings forth to salvation. They did not first choose Jesus, but he first chose them!

 

[Yeshua1]

The drawing of the Father, then the Holy Spirit is necessary to hearing and then believing. It is universal today as compared before Jesus death. Certainly, Calvinism negates the work of the Holy Spirit to draw men .
The sequence again:

Rom 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14
¶
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18¶
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

hearing, believing, (faith) calling for Salvation

This is not abstract but application directly of Scripture and Doctrine.

Those verse of sheep and goats, elect and (non-elect) are after salvation choices have been made.

NO calvinistic negates the work of the Holy Spirit, for IF he did not do his work to regenerate and saved the elect, all would still be lost!

 

[atpollard]

The drawing of the Father, then the Holy Spirit is necessary to hearing and then believing. It is universal today as compared before Jesus death. Certainly, Calvinism negates the work of the Holy Spirit to draw men .
The sequence again:
hearing, believing, (faith) calling for Salvation

Who heard, believed, and was called for Salvation?
All men ... not from where I sit. Everyone in the Meso-American Empires (Aztec, Inca, Maya) never heard for 1500 years after Jesus was "lifted up". We have an atheist and agnostic section of this board full of people who can't hear no matter how many times they are told. I am not talking about BELIEF, I mean when you correct a simple biblical fact, they are incapable of comprehending that fact.

So experiential evidence from the Real World indicates that not all CAN hear. That implies the DRAWING BY THE FATHER plays a much larger role and is NOT universal. Nothing in Romans 10 contradicts that assessment of the facts from life.

This is not abstract but application directly of Scripture and Doctrine.

If it is not "abstract", then to whom, specifically, was Romans 10 written and how did they react? I was easily able to provide that information for the "not abstract" crowds on John 6 and John 10.

Those verse of sheep and goats, elect and (non-elect) are after salvation choices have been made.

Exegesis and not opinion if you please.
I pointed out that Jesus said that the reason that they do not believe is BECAUSE the Father had not given them to Jesus. How does that make it "after salvation choices have been made" as you claim?

Unless you mean after the salvation choices of the Father have been made ... then John 6 and John 10 support that.

 

[loDebar]

The sheep are the ones elected out beforehand by God the father, whom jesus died for, and whom the Spirit brings forth to salvation. They did not first choose Jesus, but he first chose them!

He chose a way for all , They chose another way

 

[loDebar]

Who heard, believed, and was called for Salvation?
All men ... not from where I sit. Everyone in the Meso-American Empires (Aztec, Inca, Maya) never heard for 1500 years after Jesus was "lifted up". We have an atheist and agnostic section of this board full of people who can't hear no matter how many times they are told. I am not talking about BELIEF, I mean when you correct a simple biblical fact, they are incapable of comprehending that fact.

So experiential evidence from the Real World indicates that not all CAN hear. That implies the DRAWING BY THE FATHER plays a much larger role and is NOT universal. Nothing in Romans 10 contradicts that assessment of the facts from life.


If it is not "abstract", then to whom, specifically, was Romans 10 written and how did they react? I was easily able to provide that information for the "not abstract" crowds on John 6 and John 10.


Exegesis and not opinion if you please.
I pointed out that Jesus said that the reason that they do not believe is BECAUSE the Father had not given them to Jesus. How does that make it "after salvation choices have been made" as you claim?

Unless you mean after the salvation choices of the Father have been made ... then John 6 and John 10 support that.

Why would the Father not draw all men?

Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Jhn 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all menunto me.

 

[loDebar]

TULIP Revised


Total Depravity , Inability to help themselves, Original sin, but not inherited

Unconditional Invitation
Rev 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Limited Opportunity for Atonement
Rev 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, lethim be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Inviting Grace
2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Perseverance of the Saints Once Saved, Always Saved
Rom 8:38
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

 

[atpollard]

Why would the Father not draw all men?

Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Jhn 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all menunto me.

You seem to avoid my logical arguments, scriptural exegesis and questions directed to you. How disappointing.

You ask “Why would the Father not draw all men?”
Here is why ...

[Romans 9:14-24 NASB] 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

 

[loDebar]

you need to read more than a few verses, continue to Ch 10

Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

He is showing in Ch 9 that He did call the Jews to have the scriptures and how through them, Jesus would saved men.

neither the Jews nor Gentiles obtained salvation
Rom 9:30
¶
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Chapter 9 is not about salvation as you suggest but God choosing to work in His way

 

[loDebar]

Predestination of the elect impunes and impugns.

The teaching impunes the authority of God to deliver righteous punishment for the wicked by saying God's choice sent them to hell.

The teaching impugns God as a righteous judge and His fairness because of showing God does have favorites when He said He did not