Featured TULIP POLL

Calvin is not God

 

True, but to be a true Calvinist, must hold to all 5 points!

 

You're fully right Van, only "perseverance of the saints" is not OSAS except in an indirect way.

 

And yet we had a whole thread where no one could show one verse about anyone being pr

Not sure I follow you.

 

Perseverance or preservation.

There are verses about enduring until the end. If someone drowns and endures until the end of mouth to mouth resucitation, they will be saved. If one does not die in a battle field, they will be saved. Are we talking about the lost in each case, or those in Christ? Are we talking about saved from physical death or separation from God? It is context that is the key, not interpretation.

If a lost person is drowning, they do not become "in Christ" at the end of mouth to mouth resucitation. There is no spiritual context. Yes, they are saved, a generic term. They are also not dead. Physical death. What are people saved from when death and destruction are happening all around them, like in the tribulation leading up to the Second Coming? It is physical death. They are given more time to accept Christ. They are not given a free ticket of a lost soul into heaven. They still have to be born again. That choice is NOT going to get easier. It is easy right now. The last choice offered is having one's head chopped off or live. If they have chosen to live selfishly their whole life, why would they will to do anything differently? All they have done is endured to live physically. Having one's head chopped off is totally opposite of their ability to physically endure.


Reformed theology puts all the work of God into the act of the free will choice. There is nothing they can do about anything before or after that moment of free will choice. The only thing a reformed believer could have done, they claim God did for them. Before they were a slave to sin with no will. After they are slaves to God, no will. That is not practical but that is what is taught. Lots of points about life are messed up over the one little point in time, Jesus calls born again.

 

P is not once saved always saved.

 

I’m a true Christian.

 

Utter nonsense, utterly false. Lots of non-Cal's believe in OSAS. To claim the view is exclusive to Calvinism is to claim absurdity.

 

Certainly Calvinists can redefine words to create a distinction but eternal security (OSAS) and the fifth point (P) agree in that aspect.

 

It is to separate teachings...osas...was a watered down attempt to answer to the P.
wiki;
Free Grace doctrine[edit]
The Free Grace or non-traditional Calvinist doctrine has been espoused by Charles Stanley, Norman Geisler, Zane C. Hodges, Bill Bright, and others. This view, like the traditional Calvinist view, emphasizes that people are saved purely by an act of divine grace that does not depend at all on the deeds of the individual, and for that reason, advocates insist that nothing the person can do can affect his or her salvation.

The Free Grace doctrine views the person's character and life after receiving the gift of salvation as independent from the gift itself, which is the main point of differentiation from the traditional Calvinist view, or, in other words, it asserts that justification (that is, being declared righteous before God on account of Christ) does not necessarily result in sanctification (that is, a progressively more righteous life). Charles Stanley, pastor of Atlanta's megachurch First Baptist and a television evangelist, has written that the doctrine of eternal security of the believer persuaded him years ago to leave his familial Pentecostalism and become a Southern Baptist. He sums up his deep conviction that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone when he claims, "Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation."[13] For example, Stanley writes:

Look at that verse [John 3:18] and answer this question: According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual "believe in" Him.

— Charles Stanley[13] (p. 67).
In a chapter entitled "For Those Who Stop Believing", he says, "The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand (p. 74)."



A little later, Stanley also writes: "You and I are not saved because we have an enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord" (p. 80).

The doctrine sees the work of salvation as wholly monergistic, which is to say that God alone performs it and man has no part in the process beyond receiving it, and therefore, proponents argue that man cannot undo what they believe God has done. By comparison, in traditional Calvinism, people, who are otherwise unable to follow God, are enabled by regeneration to cooperate with him, and so the Reformed tradition sees itself as mediating between the total monergism of the non-traditional Calvinist view and the synergism of the Wesleyan, Arminian, and Roman Catholic views in which even unregenerate man can choose to cooperate with God in salvation.

The traditional Calvinist doctrine teaches that a person is secure in salvation because he or she was predestined by God, whereas in the Free Grace or non-traditional Calvinist views, a person is secure because at some point in time he or she has believed the Gospel message (Dave Hunt, What Love is This, p. 481).

 

The last of the five points of Calvinism teaches that God preserves His people so they can never be lost. To put it simply, it means this: "Once you are saved, you are always saved."

^ According to his link with the description it is

 

Wiki is the devil of false doctrine and human wisdom JSYK @Iconocast

 

Calvinists do not hold to once saved always saved

 

This is an absurd statement by timtofly.

 

1689..I do not see God preserves His people here?

Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace,
but shall certainly persevere therein to the end,
and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

 

I have seen more truth on wiki, than the bogus site you posted that suggests salvation was only potential.

 

I am so sick of Calvinist denying their doctrine to waste time and derail discussion. The opposite of never losing salvation is the doctrine that a person can lose salvation. Iconoclast is now proclaiming Calvinists are in that camp. Absurd deflection using utter nonsense.

 

What is absurd is your failure to understand the term perseverance.
Once you get ahold of that, than look at the quotes of the osas people you would discover the difference,but I know you will not....Bogus claim is rejected.