glfredrick
New Member
You argue against a form of Calvinism that does not exist, and in so doing, you go far afield of the articles that describe the position you believe you are following.
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TULIP: Unconditional Election
- Thread starter SpiritualMadMan
- Start date
You argue against a form of Calvinism that does not exist, and in so doing, you go far afield of the articles that describe the position you believe you are following.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
5 Point Calvinism "exists".
So also does 3 and 4 point Calvinism.
The question I asked you was what leads you to think that I reject the Remonstrance articles listed?
in Christ,
Bob
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glfredrick
New Member
Your utter insistence that we humans control our destiny by our own actions with God.
So I am to assume that Adam and Eve were God's first automatons? I.E. No free-will on Adam or Eve's part?
So I am to assume that Adam and Eve were God's first automatons? I.E. No free-will on Adam or Eve's part?
GE:
I'll be glad to be "God's first automaton"; at least that would guarantee and insure against sin, while "free-will" on Adam and Eve's part, guaranteed their sin and left them destitute without insurance whatsoever but for the grace of a loving, ELECTING, God.
glfredrick
New Member
So I am to assume that Adam and Eve were God's first automatons? I.E. No free-will on Adam or Eve's part?
Go back and read things that I've posted about Adam and Eve's free will.
As a refresher, I've said often that Adam and Eve were the only humans with true free will because they were the only humans not born into sin. They actually had a choice. The rest of us were born sinners, and we cannot save ourselves. We have no true choice in the matter. We are dependent on God -- and people are dependent on God whether the are Reformed or not.
So we sinners are dependent on God, but Adam and Eve were not? :BangHead:
glfredrick
New Member
You seem to want to find a flaw in my point. If so, I'm sure you can. But why?
Where did I even suggest that Adam and Eve were not dependent on God?
What I said was that they were the only humans with true free will, as they were not born sinners. That doesn't mean they do not need God. We ALL need God because we're all contingent creatures. God is sustainer, we are contingent on His sustaining, even in Adam and Eve's case as free persons who had not yet fallen into sin.
Of course once they did fall into sin, they equally needed God for salvation as the rest of us. To the praise of His glory, God revealed His plan for Messiah to them first. They had first opportunity to hear the gospel preached. Their continued walk with God seems to indicate that they believed Him, and that His grace was sufficient, even for their fall into sin.
quantumfaith
Active Member
GE:
Are you saying that it was not possible to grant "free will" to Adam/ Eve and still have created them such that they would not have sinned? Was that outside of God's ability?
GE;
I do not know what's inside or "outside of God's ability". But He is omnipotent of course.
I believe God created Adam and Eve in his own image which included that God created them sinless and without sinful propensity because sin itself at its root is desire (to sin). Nevertheless they willed against the will of God. Which means, they sinned. Now sin explained is sin excused and I'll attempt neither.
Rather I accept God's sovereignty even and especially over the fact his sinless creature decided to and then sinned even having sinned in his choice and free will already.
No, I'm not trying to explain; I only try to explain I don't understand. I find consolation in my inabilities and God's sovereign ability.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Romans 3 "ALL have sinned"
John 12:32 "I will draw ALL unto Me"
John 16 "The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and Judgment".
John 1 "He is the light that coming into the world enlightens every man".
John 1 "He came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN receive Him not"
Luke 7:30 "They rejected God's purpose for themselves"
Matt 23 "OH how I WANTED to save your children ... but YOU would not"
2Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance".
I never argue that our free will is of our own making as you seem to suppose.
Rather my argument is completely in line with the Remonstrance.
Surely you have to agree that my acceptance of these points is beyond doubt.
in Christ,
Bob
GE:
If "our free will" were not "of our own making" but of God's making, then He pardoned the sinner without oblation not to save him, but in order to AGAIN place man before a choice --- which God would have learned from Adam's experience would be contrary His own will; and so you are making God to blame for man's hopeless condition in sin being the slave of his own will and desire and choice.
Had a thought here.
Jonah: Was just reading about him in my Unger's bible dictionary/encyclopedia; and if there was ever one who was "called" of God, but resisted God, it was Jonah.
He was to go to Ninevah, but got on a boat that was sailing in the opposite direction.
When he/Jonah proclaimed God's judgement on the Ninevites, they(Ninevites) "surprisingly-to-Jonah" repented and turned-away God's judgement. Jonah became distraught(willfully hoping for God to destroy Ninevah, but He/God didn't....?).
Remember how he/Jonah was depressed and God had to teach him/Jonah a lesson with the little gourd plant that grew up quickly and then decayed quickly?
Jonah seems to be a very clear example of one, freely resisting God's will. In Jonah's case things went God's way, but Jonah had his own ideas of how God was suppose to handle Ninevah.
Seems that God's will was done inspite of Jonah's will that went "cross-hairs" with God's? Is this not an example of man's God-given freedom to resist God's will, though he/man is a called-one(Prophet)?
Jonah: Was just reading about him in my Unger's bible dictionary/encyclopedia; and if there was ever one who was "called" of God, but resisted God, it was Jonah.
He was to go to Ninevah, but got on a boat that was sailing in the opposite direction.
When he/Jonah proclaimed God's judgement on the Ninevites, they(Ninevites) "surprisingly-to-Jonah" repented and turned-away God's judgement. Jonah became distraught(willfully hoping for God to destroy Ninevah, but He/God didn't....?).
Remember how he/Jonah was depressed and God had to teach him/Jonah a lesson with the little gourd plant that grew up quickly and then decayed quickly?
Jonah seems to be a very clear example of one, freely resisting God's will. In Jonah's case things went God's way, but Jonah had his own ideas of how God was suppose to handle Ninevah.
Seems that God's will was done inspite of Jonah's will that went "cross-hairs" with God's? Is this not an example of man's God-given freedom to resist God's will, though he/man is a called-one(Prophet)?
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glfredrick
New Member
Did we both read the same Jonah? Jonah resisted God's will, and God sent what, a fish? And carried Jonah where? Nineveh? Yup, he resisted, and yup, God was sovereign and accomplished His purpose through that very resistant man!
glfredrick
New Member
So you are agreeing that God's will led a resistant man somewhere to do something he did not wish to do?
Glfredrick:
You are not understanding my post.
The Calvinist model is that God compells, and the subject/elect agrees...........He/she has no choice but to agree........
Jonah did not agree.............but God got His will done never the less.
Jonah exercised his "chooser/will" diametrically opposed to God's will, but the Jonah book teaches us that God is omnipotent despite our free-will to choose/refuse.
I.E. Don't you see/understand? Jonah wanted the Ninevites toasted to ash.............God didn't, cause He loved the Ninevites and Jonah didn't seem to be filled with either Godly compassion, nor forgiveness........
In that book we witness man's freewill, that is opposed to God's will, yet Jonah is loved by God as He/God patiently uses Jonah despite his contrary attitude/will towards God's will/plan for Ninevah.
Ninevites were spared................Why? Cause God foreknew the outcome and the Ninevite's hearts and knew they would bow a knee, and not follow the way of Sodom's plight.
Was Jonah of the elect? I'd say so, but he/Jonah sure didn't go with God's will. Jonah was stubborn, and lacked the love and compassion that God extends to all mankind. Was Jonah a useable vessel. Not really. Never the less Ninevah got the message of God's impending judgement, and also received God's overwhelming compassion and forgiveness.
Ninevah in later years, was wiped from the face of the earth............So, what are we to say here. God love'em, and then didn't or they were "elect" and then were removed from the "elect" list?
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Define "led". If you mean forced, it's no.
God commanded Jonah to do something...Jonah didn't do it. Was Jonah sovereign over God...or...did Jonah have the freedom to obey or not?
Dr. Walter
New Member
Irresistable grace is not about any EXTERNAL force upon the will of man. It is God giving a new INTERNAL force (new heart and spirit) which is man's own nature. So the elect chooses of his own free will because the internal mechanisms that control the will (heart and spirit) have been replaced.
Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
glfredrick
New Member
Actually, the story of Jonah is more what we hold than your version at the top of your quote above. When God decrees that the time is right, He will do what He wills to insure that His plan comes to fruition.
I was one of the resistant ones -- in fact, before my true salvation I was one who at first warred against God, then later just became an atheist. God, Himself, broke through that hardened heart and, like child's play in a matter of a couple coincidences, caused me to see His glory. If I were to tell about my experience alone, I could say that "I found God and I prayed to become a Christian." But, that isn't what happened. God found me and caused me to believe that (1) He was, (2) that I could know Him, (3) that He loved me enough to do so, (4) that He did all the work of salvation, including giving me faith to believe, and (5) that He saved me by the finished work of Christ.
In the story of Jonah, we see an unwilling man, who God used anyway. We see an unwilling sinful people, who God wished to repent. In both cases, God came first and God won.
To suggest that God's actions are based on the foreknowledge of the actions of the people is to rob God of His divine sovereignty. Just imagine standing before God and telling Him point blank that the reason YOU are in heaven before His throne is because of something YOU decided to do that caused God to do what He had to do.
The picture I see of heaven is of people bowing before the throne, not standing face-to-face with God and proclaiming their own righteousness.