TULIP: Unconditional Election

[glfredrick]

Define "led". If you mean forced, it's no.

God commanded Jonah to do something...Jonah didn't do it. Was Jonah sovereign over God...or...did Jonah have the freedom to obey or not?

Did Jonah do it?

 

[glfredrick]

Irresistable grace is not about any EXTERNAL force upon the will of man. It is God giving a new INTERNAL force (new heart and spirit) which is man's own nature. So the elect chooses of his own free will because the internal mechanisms that control the will (heart and spirit) have been replaced.

Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Amen and Amen~ :thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

Did Jonah do it?

Initially? No. After he repented? Yes. Was he initially sovereign over God?

God sending the fish was an act of grace, btw, not punishment. He would have died in the ocean had God not sent that fish.

 

[glfredrick]

Initially? No. After he repented? Yes. Was he initially sovereign over God?

God sending the fish was an act of grace, btw, not punishment. He would have died in the ocean had God not sent that fish.

Was God's plan carried out?

Yes or no?

Who said a word about punishment? Oh, you...

You use a lot of words, but you are skirting around the issue based on a faulty understanding of Calvinism that I KNOW has been explained to you at least a dozen times in just the past couple of weeks.

Will you continue to deal with your favorite intentional fallacy or will you deal with the real theology?

 

[webdog]

Was God's plan carried out?

Yes or no?

Who said a word about punishment? Oh, you...

You use a lot of words, but you are skirting around the issue based on a faulty understanding of Calvinism that I KNOW has been explained to you at least a dozen times in just the past couple of weeks.

Will you continue to deal with your favorite intentional fallacy or will you deal with the real theology?

I answered your question, will you answer mine?

Of course God's plan was carried out, He is sovereign (in control).

What is "real theology"...anything GLF says it is?

 

[glfredrick]

I answered your question, will you answer mine?

Of course God's plan was carried out, He is sovereign (in control).

What is "real theology"...anything GLF says it is?

I thought that I was answering yours. Of course the means that I employed to answer your questions probably wasn't your intent.

God commanded Jonah to do something...Jonah didn't do it. Was Jonah sovereign over God...or...did Jonah have the freedom to obey or not?

Above is the main question you asked. My response was another question that actually answered. Did God get His way. Yes. Did Jonah resist? Yes. But who ended up sovereign? God.

Nothing in this exchange violates a single tenet of Calvinism. We understand that people "resist" God. We are not automatons, nor is God "deterministic" (for all the efforts to paint our theology that way). We have a level of free will, absolutely! To say otherwise is to violate the Scripture that we must both honor! But, in the end, God WAS sovereign, and His purposes were fulfilled by the man He elected to do the task. This same concept or principle is everywhere in Scripture, including Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, the 12 sons of Jacob, Israel as a nation, Saul, David, Solomon, the prophets, etc., etc., etc. God decrees and elects, people do God's will. Some resistance (and sin) along the way, but God is never thwarted in the least, nor is God so bothered by our resistance that He must step down from His royal throne in anguish.

And about "real theology" being only mine... Of course not. That would be silly. We stand (all of us) on the shoulders of those who have come before -- men and women of God down through the ages, all the way back to Christ and His elect disciples. I'm just sharing the message...

And no, I am not at war with you... :thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

The word "leadeth" in Romans 2:4 is the same word used of Gods witnesses being dragged before courts to be persecuted.

Hmmmm. Maybe it does carry some "force" to it.

When God led me to repentance, He made circumstances happen in my life which made me question Him doing this, and made me realize He is in control, not me, and I am thankful for this. He certainly was goading me that way. So too with Saul.