TULIP: Unconditional Election

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

...and another post with no substance. I see you can dish it out, but you cannot take it.

Please elaborate on why WHOM for you is such a slam dunk for your position...and leave the attacks out...

GE:

What mighty statement of faith and substance!

Only excelled by the brilliant ‘slam dunk’ alongside....by Eightball

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

By the buy, I have no love lost for the lost, nor regrets.

 

[BobRyan]

Why the "Personal" attacks by the TULIP advocates?

When evidence for Bible argument fails -- ad hominem prevails.

It is predictable as rain.

Is that why we who differ are "lost" and need salvation unless we accept their "God Given" premise?

If we are not lost but considered brothers and sisters in the Lord, are we considered "apostate"?

The wife and I have some close friends(married couple) that used to accept/believe a moderate view that entailed both sides and also didn't involve debating intensely about who the "elect" our and how they ended up that way.

They left the church we all attended and joined a "Reformed" church, and it wasn't but a few weeks and they started to "change" in their relationship towards the wife and myself.

It was almost akin to having friends who were once bible Christians becoming Mormons or J.W.'s..

I am very sorry to hear about that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Fatalistic deterministic calvinist emphasizes WHOM for no apparent reason. At any rate the predestining here has nothing to do with salvation but being conformed to Christ.

In the 5 point Calvinist "future scenario"

The inner quotes contain “The scenario”. Everything else is my commentary. (Of course the entire thing is my own test scenario for Calvinism)



5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:

“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. (In the perfect Calvinist Utopian future). This scenario simply removes that “luxury” (for a moment) in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).

When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry

"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not.
(For within Calvinism it IS all about the saved/elect in the end)

We see the Calvinist blessing the fact that God chose him albeit not his precious daughter. AND that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.

So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.

Hint: By contrast – Moses’ prayer of intercession on behalf of the CHILDREN of Israel is to blot out HIS name and take them!

You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.


Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.

Fascinating!


Certainly we might expect one of our Calvinist friends to say "I see no reason to rejoice over the death of anyone but I glory to God it wasn't me."

However the problem with that callous disregard for the lost is seen when it is one's own child that is caught in that "I don't care" cauldron.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[webdog]

GE:

What mighty statement of faith and substance!

Only excelled by the brilliant ‘slam dunk’ alongside....by Eightball

Like I thought, you had no point. Can't say I'm surprised. Anybody can say you are wrong by typing a WORD really big and say "see, that's why you are wrong...the big word said so".

 

[webdog]

By the buy, I have no love lost for the lost, nor regrets.

...then you are violating Christ's command and an attitude that is NOT Christlike.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

...then you are violating Christ's command and an attitude that is NOT Christlike.

Ultimately, this is a serious issue for the Hyper Calvinist. It seems to be a common emotion with regard to those "not elect" from those who espouse surity or "electness". It is a short coming certainly.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In the 5 point Calvinist "future scenario"

The inner quotes contain “The scenario”. Everything else is my commentary. (Of course the entire thing is my own test scenario for Calvinism)



5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:

“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. (In the perfect Calvinist Utopian future). This scenario simply removes that “luxury” (for a moment) in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).




You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.


Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.

Fascinating!


Certainly we might expect one of our Calvinist friends to say "I see no reason to rejoice over the death of anyone but I glory to God it wasn't me."

However the problem with that callous disregard for the lost is seen when it is one's own child that is caught in that "I don't care" cauldron.

in Christ,

Bob

GE:

Rubbish.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

...then you are violating Christ's command and an attitude that is NOT Christlike.

GE:

"Let the dead bury their dead."

"Whosoever shall be ashamed of Me and of my words in THIS SINFUL AND ADULTEROUS GENERATION, of him also shall the Son of Man be ashamed."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Hypocrisy ALWAYS bluffs the hypocrite and most of the time everybody else until it comes to stand before God.

 

[webdog]

GE:

"Let the dead bury their dead."

"Whosoever shall be ashamed of Me and of my words in THIS SINFUL AND ADULTEROUS GENERATION, of him also shall the Son of Man be ashamed."

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"

“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them."


"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"

“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them."


"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

GE:

Quite true!

 

[eightball]

Gerhard:

Jesus weeped/cried over dear Jerusalem. Why? If some of them were damned to hell from God's perspective, why?

Why did Jesus weep along with those who attended Lazarus' funeral?

Why did Jesus say on the cross, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do"? Was Jesus only crying out on behalf of the elect?

Why did Paul, Barnabus, Timothy, and so many brave danger and peril to get out the gospel to the all of Asia Minor, if the "elect" were just that, the "elect" already?

 

[BobRyan]

Gerhard:

Jesus weeped/cried over dear Jerusalem. Why? If some of them were damned to hell from God's perspective, why?

Ok here are some options.

1. Because he never predestined them to be hell - and Calvinism is wrong.

2. Because He wanted to make it "appear" that the Arminian concept of free will is correct.

3. Because He wanted to make the lost Jews believe that He is more loving than Calvinism would have it.


There are a number of ways to solve that problem.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[quantumfaith]

Ok here are some options.

1. Because he never predestined them to be hell - and Calvinism is wrong.

2. Because He wanted to make it "appear" that the Arminian concept of free will is correct.

3. Because He wanted to make the lost Jews believe that He is more loving than Calvinism would have it.


There are a number of ways to solve that problem.

in Christ,

Bob

4. Could it be becaue both his divine and human nature demonstrated the great love, concern and compassion he had for the people of his day?

Which is it for you Bob?

 

[billwald]

"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Then why isn't THIS the only confession and creed of every Christian denomination?

 

[BobRyan]

"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Then why isn't THIS the only confession and creed of every Christian denomination?

Because instead of Jesus saying "Deut 6:5 Love God with all your heart, and Lev 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself -- have deleted the entire Word of God since the days of Moses - so toss out your Bibles" - Jesus said that those two Mosaic laws are the bedrock Firm-foundation of the Word of God as given in the OT and that the entire structure stands firm on an immovable foundation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

4. Could it be becaue both his divine and human nature demonstrated the great love, concern and compassion he had for the people of his day?

Which is it for you Bob?

As for me - I pick option 1 of my own free will.

God never predestined them to hell - and Calvinism is wrong on the idea that Christ predestined them to failure EVEN though He said "O How I WANTED to spare your children...but you would not".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[quantumfaith]

As for me - I pick option 1 of my own free will.

God never predestined them to hell - and Calvinism is wrong on the idea that Christ predestined them to failure EVEN though He said "O How I WANTED to spare your children...but you would not".

in Christ,

Bob

:applause::applause::thumbsup:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gerhard:

Jesus weeped/cried over dear Jerusalem. Why? If some of them were damned to hell from God's perspective, why?

Why did Jesus weep along with those who attended Lazarus' funeral?

Why did Jesus say on the cross, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do"? Was Jesus only crying out on behalf of the elect?

Why did Paul, Barnabus, Timothy, and so many brave danger and peril to get out the gospel to the all of Asia Minor, if the "elect" were just that, the "elect" already?

GE:

Yes; Eightball, "the "elect" were just that, the "elect" already" --- and that was WHY Jesus, Paul, Barnabas and Timothy "braved so many dangers" : FOR TO BRING THE ELECT TO THE KNOWLEDGE AND ENJOYMENT OF THEIR SALVATION.

It would have been a quite useless salvation the Elect never knew about, wouldn't it? Like I all my life dreamed of my Waterberg plaas while my inheritance lay wasted all my life -- I never knew, Pa left me in his Will.