Turning His back on Jesus

[percho]

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? --- ἐγκατέλιπες --- From ἐν (G1722) and καταλείπω (G2641) Matt 27:46

Jesus gave up his spirit a minute or so after that. He died. Died in being somehow associated with Hades. For;

“he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. Acts 2:31 κατελείφθη Once again G2641

Was not forsaken to Hades.

What about the three days and three nights in between?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

G5055 - teleō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

Thank you. I should have added that the word can also mean to 'fulfill' and to ''perform.' All these meanings help us to understand what happened on the cross.

Tis finished! The Messiah dies,
Cut off for sins, but not His own.
Accomplished is the sacrifice,
The great redeeming work is done.
'Tis finished! All the debt is paid;
Justice divine is satisfied;
The grand and full atonement made;
Christ for a guilty world has died.
.
The veil is rent in Christ alone;
the living way to heaven is seen;
The middle wall is broken down
And all mankind may enter in.
The types and figures are fulfilled;
Exacted is the legal pain;
The precious promises are sealed;
The spotless Lamb of God is slain.
.
The reign of sin and death is o'er,
And all may live from sin set free.
Satan has lost His mortal power;
'Tis swallowed up in victory.
saved from the legal curse I am,
My Saviour hangs upon the tree;
Se there the meek, expiring Lamb!
'Tis finished! He expires for me.

Accepted in the Well-beloved,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
I see the bar to heaven removed
And all Thy merits, Lord are mine.
Death, hell and sin are now subdued;
All grace is now to sinners given;
And lo! I plead the atoning blood,
And in Your right I claim my heaven.

Charles Wesley

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Did God the Father, actually turn his back on Christ, while the sin of the entire world was on him?

In so much that Jesus cries out "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?"

A point my pastor pointed out on Good Friday:
Jesus suffered in a way I cannot imagine and which I never have to go through. He cries out to God about being forsaken, but that very Cross means I was never forsaken, even as an unbeliever.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? --- ἐγκατέλιπες --- From ἐν (G1722) and καταλείπω (G2641) Matt 27:46

Jesus gave up his spirit a minute or so after that. He died. Died in being somehow associated with Hades. For;

“he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. Acts 2:31 κατελείφθη Once again G2641

Was not forsaken to Hades.

What about the three days and three nights in between?

Ecclesiastes 12:7. 'Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.'
The Lord Jesus was clearly an exception to the first part of the verse since His body saw no corruption (Acts 2:27), but I see no reason to suppose that His Spirit was not reunited with The Father (the idea expressed in the Apostles' Creed that He descended into hell is a mistaken understanding of Ephesians 4:9 and 1 Peter 3:19).

My understanding is that the spirits of the redeemed who die go to Paradise (aka possibly, the bosom of Abraham) while the wicked are sent to Hades, remanded in custody, as it were, until the final Day of Judgement.

 

[percho]

The very word translateed "It is finished" is the word translated, "accomplished," where it says, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." John 19:28. This was before He physically died. And His soul was restored to life and His fellowship was again with His Father, Luke 23:46.

From your post. This was before He physically died. And His soul was restored to life and His fellowship was again with His Father, Luke 23:46

At that time were Peter, James and John still in their sins? ----- Consider: for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen, and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins; ! Cor 15:16,17 To date, how many have risen in the likeness of his resurrection?
Were their sins washed away is his blood, while his soul was in Hades and his flesh lay in the tomb?

According to the Word of God.


Where was Jesus for three days? Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead -- -- Did the Father turn his back on the Son for three days?

the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all - from Isa 53:6
for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, - From 2 Cor 5:21
for the wages of the sin is death - From Rom 6:23
that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings, - from 1 Cor 15:3

In the eyes of God the Father, was the dead Jesus clean or unclean?
For those three days and three nights, what was the status of our sins?
Were Peter, James and John still in there sins?
Was the soul, Jesus, dead in Hades?

 

[37818]

From your post. This was before He physically died. And His soul was restored to life and His fellowship was again with His Father, Luke 23:46

At that time were Peter, James and John still in their sins? ----- Consider: for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen, and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins; ! Cor 15:16,17 To date, how many have risen in the likeness of his resurrection?
Were their sins washed away is his blood, while his soul was in Hades and his flesh lay in the tomb?

According to the Word of God.


Where was Jesus for three days? Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead -- -- Did the Father turn his back on the Son for three days?

the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all - from Isa 53:6
for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, - From 2 Cor 5:21
for the wages of the sin is death - From Rom 6:23
that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings, - from 1 Cor 15:3

In the eyes of God the Father, was the dead Jesus clean or unclean?
For those three days and three nights, what was the status of our sins?
Were Peter, James and John still in there sins?
Was the soul, Jesus, dead in Hades?

Ah, no. The finished work on the cross was for the past, present and future saved. Isaiah 53, was written in the oast tense, as if it was all ready done. Yet that event was future to its writing. The Old Testament saints did not go to the lower Sheol, Deuteronomy 32:22, Psalms 86:13, Luke 16:31. Jesus called the place Paradise. And that place had to have been moved when He ascended to Heaven, Ephesians 4;8. That is how I understand this.

 

[George Antonios]

Not in so many words. Indeed, since God is Spirit, such an idea is an anthropomorphism. Moreover, one of the attributes of God is that He is omni-present (Psalms 139:7-12).
However, we read, in Habakkuk 1:13, 'You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look [approvingly] upon wickedness.' Christ was bearing all the sin of His people (Isaiah 53:6; 1 Peter 2:24) and likewise the curse that attaches to sin (Galatians 3:10-14); therefore it follows that God would withdraw His felt presence.
The sky turned dark in the middle of the day to symbolize this. It is evident that the Lord Jesus had no consciousness of His Father's presence and this is what wrung from Him that dreadful cry, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" It is significant that at the moment He was being crucified, He prayed to the Father (Luke 23:34), and at the end of His suffering, when propitiation had been made, He does so again (Luke 23:46). But there in the darkness, feeling utterly forsaken, He cries out, "My God......"

I agree.
Sidenote: that the word of God always speaks of God in figuratively anthropomorphic terms is false. That's Greek/Gnostic philosophy, not Bible. The word of God, as far the scriptures themselves on their own, is clear: God, even as a Spirit, has a humanoid shape - actual eyes, ears, face, hands, feet. Just because some expressions may be understood figuratively does not mean God doesn't have a bodily shape - as many verses clearly teach us.

 

[AustinC]

I agree.
Sidenote: that the word of God always speaks of God in figuratively anthropomorphic terms is false. That's Greek/Gnostic philosophy, not Bible. The word of God, as far the scriptures themselves on their own, is clear: God, even as a Spirit, has a humanoid shape - actual eyes, ears, face, hands, feet. Just because some expressions may be understood figuratively does not mean God doesn't have a bodily shape - as many verses clearly teach us.

We see God the Son in human form, so...yes God has taken on human flesh. We see God the Spirit manifest in the form of a dove [emoji2731] and in tongues of fire [emoji91]. God the Father is never seen or manifested in a way that we can explain.

 

[JonC]

Perhaps one could make the argument that he turned his back on him even though he did not hide his face from him. Psalm 22:23-24 (NIV):

You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.​

I think it depends on what we mean by "turn one's back" on someone. Obviously God did not forsake Christ in terms of separation or withdrawing. But the Father did forsake Jesus to suffer (Jesus was forsaken to suffer and die, delivered not from but through the Cross).

We experience the same in this lifetime. Christians often find themselves in a forsaken state of suffering. My father was forsaken to suffer cancer and die. But God never forsook him in the context of withdrawing or separating from my father. He was delivered through that physical suffering and death, not from it.

Given Psalm 22 it seems that this is probably the correct idea. In the Psalm the Subject cries out in a forsaken state, forsaken by God to suffer and die. But at the same time the Subject's faith is in God's righteousness not to forsake him but to deliver him as God delivered his forefathers. And as the Psalm closes we see that God never left and that the suffering and death was indeed a part of God's plan. God proves righteous not in delivering Christ from the Cross but through the Cross.

So I think that "turn one's back" could fit. That is an expression often used to express a sense of not helping someone and at least in a way it fits.

 

[JonShaff]

God did not forsake His Son.

The Father is always with His Son. They are One. Christ dying for our sin--the just One suffering for the unjust--proves that the Father will never leave us nor forsake us. The Father was not pleased because Christ was suffering unjustly (Isaiah 53), He was pleased because of Christ's perfect obedience to the will of the Father (Phil. 2).

And i believe context shows that in 2 Corinthians 5 Paul is saying Christ became a sin "OFFERING"--Christ did not become actual sin--follow chapters 3-4, the better realities of the New Covenant. the NLT actually catches this..

Also, Isaiah 53:10 says exactly this.

For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

After all, Paul is talking about the ministry of reconciliation. Christ being our peace/sin offering.

Christ quotes at least part of Psalm 22 on the cross--and if you go ahead and read the rest of the Psalm, it depicts the exact scene the Gospel writing describes. Later in the Psalm we read...

I will declare your name to my people;

in the assembly I will praise you.

23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!

All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!

Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or scorned

the suffering of the afflicted one;

he has not hidden his face from him

but has listened to his cry for help.

Any who....

How do we know that God will never forsake us? Because God does not forsake His Sons.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I think it depends on what we mean by "turn one's back" on someone. Obviously God did not forsake Christ in terms of separation or withdrawing. But the Father did forsake Jesus to suffer (Jesus was forsaken to suffer and die, delivered not from but through the Cross).

We experience the same in this lifetime. Christians often find themselves in a forsaken state of suffering. My father was forsaken to suffer cancer and die. But God never forsook him in the context of withdrawing or separating from my father. He was delivered through that physical suffering and death, not from it.

Given Psalm 22 it seems that this is probably the correct idea. In the Psalm the Subject cries out in a forsaken state, forsaken by God to suffer and die. But at the same time the Subject's faith is in God's righteousness not to forsake him but to deliver him as God delivered his forefathers. And as the Psalm closes we see that God never left and that the suffering and death was indeed a part of God's plan. God proves righteous not in delivering Christ from the Cross but through the Cross.

So I think that "turn one's back" could fit. That is an expression often used to express a sense of not helping someone and at least in a way it fits.

I wonder what you think of this point my pastor pointed out on Good Friday:
Jesus suffered in a way I cannot imagine and which I never have to go through. He cries out to God about being forsaken, but that very Cross means I was never forsaken, even as an unbeliever.

It would seem since we have the Cross, the Risen Christ, a community of the Redeemed, and God's promises through Christ. We are blessed in a way Christ wasn't. This does not make light of your father's suffering and affliction to even death. Neither does it make light of anyone's suffering as an unbeliever or believer (I suffer from an excruciating and potentially deadly illness for years, but only became a Christian four years ago). I think my pastors point just helps put things in perspective.

 

[JonShaff]

I wonder what you think of this point my pastor pointed out on Good Friday:
Jesus suffered in a way I cannot imagine and which I never have to go through. He cries out to God about being forsaken, but that very Cross means I was never forsaken, even as an unbeliever.

It would seem since we have the Cross, the Risen Christ, a community of the Redeemed, and God's promises through Christ. We are blessed in a way Christ wasn't. This does not make light of your father's suffering and affliction to even death. Neither does it make light of anyone's suffering as an unbeliever or believer (I suffer from an excruciating and potentially deadly illness for years, but only became a Christian four years ago). I think my pastors point just helps put things in perspective.

We'll never get it, but Scripture is very clear on the matter--the Reason why it was so horrendous and totally unimaginable for us to see (and grasp) the tremendous suffering of Christ is because He was totally innocent and yet He still died physically. A righteous man died. The key is that He died willingly. And God Vindicated Him--because A. He was totally obedient B. He was totally righteous. These two points (in connection with His death) we will never understand. I'm not sure we will even understand them in our glorified state. Maybe we will.

In other words--he was the only man ever to exist that did not deserve to die. And because Christ lives in us, and His righteousness is imputed in us, we do not "deserve" to die as well--because God does not forsake the righteous. He will vindicate us, even our physical bodies, at the Resurrection.

 

[JonC]

I wonder what you think of this point my pastor pointed out on Good Friday:
Jesus suffered in a way I cannot imagine and which I never have to go through. He cries out to God about being forsaken, but that very Cross means I was never forsaken, even as an unbeliever.

It would seem since we have the Cross, the Risen Christ, a community of the Redeemed, and God's promises through Christ. We are blessed in a way Christ wasn't. This does not make light of your father's suffering and affliction to even death. Neither does it make light of anyone's suffering as an unbeliever or believer (I suffer from an excruciating and potentially deadly illness for years, but only became a Christian four years ago). I think my pastors point just helps put things in perspective.

I would disagree a little. The reason is Christ entered our world, "shared in our infirmity", and in Psalm 22 the faith in God's righteousness (the faith in God to deliver) is based on God's declarations and God's dealings with others who had gone before. If God abandoned Christ then we can not expect anything less because prior to the Cross God declared he would not abandon the Righteous. God would have proved Himself unrighteous.

That said, I would take your pastors words with the intent he meant them and not pick apart the sermon theologically. We should not destroy a forest for one tree that we do not like. His point is good in what Christ suffered (being that Christ is God) and God delivered Him and us in Him.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God, even as a Spirit, has a humanoid shape - actual eyes, ears, face, hands, feet.

That would be Jesus (Colossians 1:15, 2:9).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God did not forsake His Son.

24 For he has not despised or scorned

the suffering of the afflicted one;

he has not hidden his face from him

but has listened to his cry for help.

Any who....

How do we know that God will never forsake us? Because God does not forsake His Sons.

I think we need to read the whole of the Psalm, including, of course, verse 1a, which our Lord quoted and which is about as clear as it can be, but also:

1b. Why are You so far from helping Me,
and from the words of My groaning?

2. I My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
and in the night season, and am not silent.

The point is that the Lord Jesus was not permanently forsaken by the Father, as I pointed out in my post #14.

 

[percho]

Ah, no. The finished work on the cross was for the past, present and future saved. Isaiah 53, was written in the oast tense, as if it was all ready done. Yet that event was future to its writing. The Old Testament saints did not go to the lower Sheol, Deuteronomy 32:22, Psalms 86:13, Luke 16:31. Jesus called the place Paradise. And that place had to have been moved when He ascended to Heaven, Ephesians 4;8. That is how I understand this.

For Thy kindness is great toward me, And Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest Sheol. Ps 86:13

I would say that is exactly where they went.

And where the soul of David was on the Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus.

having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. Acts 2:31

 

[percho]

the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all - from Isa 53:6
for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, - From 2 Cor 5:21

Did the Father forsake the Son for a period of time?

'He who is coming against the dead body (soul) of any man -- is unclean seven days; Num 19:11

Was Jesus being dead unclean in the eyes of God the Father?
he doth cleanse himself for it on the third day, From Num 19:12

Would,,washing of regeneration, have taken place on the third day?

Now I asked earlier. When Jesus said, "My God, My God why has thou forsaken me, Father into your hands I commit my spirit and then breathed out the spirit, died, were Peter, James and John still in their sin. Had the blood of Jesus washed away their sins? Then posted 1 Cor 15:17 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;

I think this shows the Father forsook the Son for three days.

I think it shows washing of regeneration was requires for the blood of Jesus to wash away our sin in his own blood. His life, soul of the flesh was no longer in the blood of him but in the life giving spirit. See 1 Cor 15:45,46 so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.

To date that is the only one born of woman to which that applies.

 

[37818]

Did the Father forsake the Son for a period of time?

On the cross for a rime before Christ's physical dearh. The atonement was completed before He went to Paradise.

 

[percho]

On the cross for a rime before Christ's physical dearh. The atonement was completed before He went to Paradise.

and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. Luke 23:46
The night before that above was said, Jesus was in the garden praying and the following is said about that; Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up both supplications and entreaties to him who was able to save him out of death, with strong crying and tears; (and having been heard because of his piety Heb 5:7 DBY

What would think that says? To thy hands I commit. I shall be placing the spirit of me. Just what do you believe, the spirit of him, did for the flesh and made him soul with life? See Lev 17:11 for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.--- What is in the blood? Is it the spirit of the breath of lives from God?
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Heb 10:4 -- The blood that contains, the breath of the spirit of lives.

I do not believe the atonement for the soul could take place until whatever it is that is in the blood that makes the flesh soul living, departs.I do believe that is the spirit from God.

What is finished is the mission for which the Son was sent, obedience unto death> Heb 5:7.8 Phil 2:8

egkatelipes egkatelipes G1459 vi 2Aor Act 2 Sg YOU-abandonED you-did-forsake

I know, no Greek. So I ask; Is that past tense, present tense or past and on going?

Atonement required death and salvation required life out of death.

IMHO Jesus the only begotten Son died for our sins and was dead, the spirit of him being in the hands of the Father, for three days.

or I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings, and that he was buried, and that he hath risen on the third day, according to the Writings, 1 Cor 15:3,4
Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead -- Gal 1:1
and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you. Rom 8:11

 

[JonShaff]

I think we need to read the whole of the Psalm, including, of course, verse 1a, which our Lord quoted and which is about as clear as it can be, but also:

1b. Why are You so far from helping Me,
and from the words of My groaning?

2. I My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
and in the night season, and am not silent.

The point is that the Lord Jesus was not permanently forsaken by the Father, as I pointed out in my post #14.

I understand, and i can see your point. I tend to believe that Jesus was quoting this Psalm as a judgment against His hearers.