Two baptisms: Which is which?

[DHK]

This thread is not about tongues are any of the manifestation of the Spirit. So you are wrong on that account!

Yes it is. The two cannot be separated.
Here's why:
The United Pentecostal's belief is this:
Salvation is acquired through baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is evidenced by speaking in tongues. They don't actually believe that the tongues in and of itself is a requirement of salvation, but if you don't speak in tongues they know you are not saved because it is the automatic result of being baptized in the Spirit.
Because they are so closely connected in the Charismatic movement it is appropriate to talk about tongues in the same context as the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[awaken]

Yes it is. The two cannot be separated.
Here's why:
The United Pentecostal's belief is this:
Salvation is acquired through baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is evidenced by speaking in tongues. They don't actually believe that the tongues in and of itself is a requirement of salvation, but if you don't speak in tongues they know you are not saved because it is the automatic result of being baptized in the Spirit.
Because they are so closely connected in the Charismatic movement it is appropriate to talk about tongues in the same context as the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

We are speaking of the ONE baptism. Which one is it? Is it water or Spirit or something else?

 

[DHK]

I did read you post and went back and re read it! I still can't figure out how you come up with water baptism being the only baptism when it is the "one baptism" that brings us into the body of Christ? SO if you believe the one baptism is water???????

There were people saved (believed) and water baptized but did not have the Holy Spirit!

Read Tom Butler's response in another thread here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1970033&postcount=133

 

[DHK]

Lets take a closer look at water batism...or what the Bible calls John's baptism

John's water baptism was voluntary. People chose to be baptized:

"John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey. People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River." (Matthew 3:4-6)

John's baptism was voluntary, and it was not a requirement for salvation. Notice that John's baptism was not considered to be a Christian baptism because in Ephesus the apostle Paul rebaptized people who had only had John's baptism:

"While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus." (Acts 19:1-5)

It appears that John's baptism was more like OT baptism...They were to believe on the one coming AFTER John...Jesus!

So Is water baptism (John's baptism) and Spirit baptism the same?

No they are not the same.

I ask this question earlier and it was not answered...but were the apostles baptized in water after John's baptism? OR were they just baptize by Jesus (Holy Spirit) on the Day of Pentecost (no water involved)?

The apostles were baptized by John and Jesus accepted that.
They were told to tarry at Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit came, which they did.
The Book of Acts is a book of transition, a book of history. It is a book of the beginning of the Church Age and the beginning of many churches. Doctrine is not based on the book of Acts but rather in the epistles.

 

[awaken]

No they are not the same.

The apostles were baptized by John and Jesus accepted that.
They were told to tarry at Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit came, which they did.
The Book of Acts is a book of transition, a book of history. It is a book of the beginning of the Church Age and the beginning of many churches. Doctrine is not based on the book of Acts but rather in the epistles.

Acts is not a transitional book! It is the church carrying out what Jesus said they would!

So if I understood the post from the other thread by Tombutler....
Who's church were the disciples baptized into? Since they were baptized by John.
If Johns' baptism was accepted, then why in Acts 19 did they have to be re-baptized so to speak? If Jesus accepted it then why didn't Paul? Why did he say they had to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus?

 

[DHK]

Acts is not a transitional book! It is the church carrying out what Jesus said they would!

So if I understood the post from the other thread by Tombutler....
Who's church were the disciples baptized into? Since they were baptized by John.
If Johns' baptism was accepted, then why in Acts 19 did they have to be re-baptized so to speak? If Jesus accepted it then why didn't Paul? Why did he say they had to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus?

Read the gospels to understand the salvation of the apostles.
"Is this not the Messiah."
"Thou art the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
Read their testimonies of who Christ was and how they left all to follow him.

Then read the last part of Acts 18 concerning Apollos. And then read that first portion of Acts 19. They are both connected. Those who followed John did not follow Jesus. They followed John. They didn't understand the message of Jesus. The followed the message of John's message of repentance and baptism of repentance, but that was not the message of Jesus, which was the gospel of the Kingdom of God.
They were "OT saints" so to speak.
Once they fully understood they believed and were baptized. Being Jews they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Remember that speaking in tongues is a sign to the Jews. It is also a sign for the apostles. That gift completed its purpose in both ways on that day.

 

[awaken]

Read the gospels to understand the salvation of the apostles.
"Is this not the Messiah."
"Thou art the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
Read their testimonies of who Christ was and how they left all to follow him.

Then read the last part of Acts 18 concerning Apollos. And then read that first portion of Acts 19. They are both connected. Those who followed John did not follow Jesus. They followed John. They didn't understand the message of Jesus. The followed the message of John's message of repentance and baptism of repentance, but that was not the message of Jesus, which was the gospel of the Kingdom of God.
They were "OT saints" so to speak.
Once they fully understood they believed and were baptized. Being Jews they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Remember that speaking in tongues is a sign to the Jews. It is also a sign for the apostles. That gift completed its purpose in both ways on that day.

You missed my point! Were the apostles re-baptized after they followed and understood Jesus?

 

[Yeshua1]

We are speaking of the ONE baptism. Which one is it? Is it water or Spirit or something else?

again, a sinner does not ask for the gift of the HS, he receives the gift of eternal life found in jesus Christ!
that included the coming of the HS to indwell and seal us!

and again, NO scriptures say 'seek the Baptism of the HG, ask for that gift!"

And we have ALL been baptized by the HS when saved into body of Christ, and there are NO signs needed like a tongue to evidence that!

 

[awaken]

again, a sinner does not ask for the gift of the HS, he receives the gift of eternal life found in jesus Christ!
that included the coming of the HS to indwell and seal us!

and again, NO scriptures say 'seek the Baptism of the HG, ask for that gift!"

And we have ALL been baptized by the HS when saved into body of Christ, and there are NO signs needed like a tongue to evidence that!

So you are saying the one baptism is Holy Spirit baptism?

 

[awaken]

"On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. ... you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."" (Acts 1:4-8)

"I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." (Luke 24:49)

Notice carefully what Jesus said and what He did not say. He did not say that in a few days (at Pentecost) the disciples will receive forgiveness of sins or eternal life. He did not mention forgiveness of sins or eternal life at all! (Recall that these things were mentioned on Resurrection Sunday). Instead, Jesus specifically said that the disciples will receive power and will be clothed with power in a few days (at Pentecost). Then He described the ministry of evangelism which they would soon begin, saying that they would be His witnesses to the ends of the earth.

Therefore, we can see that Pentecost was the point at which the disciples received supernatural empowerment for their ministry.

Spirit upon/clothed....

 

[Yeshua1]

So you are saying the one baptism is Holy Spirit baptism?

saying the one Baptism that we are commanded to do is the water one, as the Baptism in the HS happens at the moment are born again!

 

[Yeshua1]

disregard starting new thread!

 

[awaken]

saying the one Baptism that we are commanded to do is the water one, as the Baptism in the HS happens at the moment are born again!

How do you explain the ONE baptism if you believe in two?

 

[Yeshua1]

How do you explain the ONE baptism if you believe in two?

The water baptism is what we as Chrsitians are to do, the HS does the other at salvation, so no need for us to seek or do it!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

This thread is not about tongues are any of the manifestation of the Spirit. So you are wrong on that account! YOu judgement of me is wrong! The reason I get on threads that are so against what I have come to learn through scripture is because it makes me dig deeper into the word! I am challenged more...questioned more! I wish it was just over scripture instead of personal attacks! But I can not control that! Most here get upset if you do not embrace THEIR interpretations and start to be critical of the person. I thought you were going to be different????
I do not get offended easily! I would have left here a long time ago...because there is very little love on this board! But at least I am challenged here!

Well, you have never really read my take on tongues..because I have always said tongue is a language, just one the speaker himself did not learn. What you like most deny here is what Paul says tongue is ...speaking to God/praying in the spirit/ blessing with the spirit.

Funny and strange isn't it that Jesus intended it to be forever until he returns! But the church was taught lies and unbelief concerning this! NO! I hold to the doctrine of the apostles!

No, you do not. You ignore scripture in its context. You follow and hold to the doctrine of Charles Parham and William J. Seymour. HS baptism is not separate from conversion, and tongues is not the evidence of it. This doctrine was unknown until 113 years ago.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, you do not. You ignore scripture in its context. You follow and hold to the doctrine of Charles Parham and William J. Seymour. HS baptism is not separate from conversion, and tongues is not the evidence of it. This doctrine was unknown until 113 years ago.

the spiritual "father" of all this junk was a E.W. Kenyon, as he was the one that hagin, copeland etc all look to for their theologies!

he taught a type of Charasmatic Chrsitian Science!

 

[evangelist-7]

saying the one Baptism that we are commanded to do is the water one,
as the Baptism in the HS happens at the moment are born again!

And to think you were once in a Pentecostal church (and were prophesying?) !!!
What an incredible travesty ... and a statement of the deplorable condition of the church !!!
That's all I have to say for this week.
.

 

[Yeshua1]

And to think you were once in a Pentecostal church (and were prophesying?) !!!
What an incredible travesty ... and a statement of the deplorable condition of the church !!!
That's all I have to say for this week.
.

Awaken has not provoded it for me, so can you produce just ONE verse that tells us to seek the baptism in the HS, to seek after a "further blessing" after getting saved?

 

[awaken]

Awaken has not provoded it for me, so can you produce just ONE verse that tells us to seek the baptism in the HS, to seek after a "further blessing" after getting saved?

"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Luke 11:11-13)
Is God our Father before salvation?
Do we ask for the Holy Spirit when we are saved?
So when are we to ask for more of the Holy Spirit....and he will give it to us?

 

[Yeshua1]

"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Luke 11:11-13)
Is God our Father before salvation?
Do we ask for the Holy Spirit when we are saved?
So when are we to ask for more of the Holy Spirit....and he will give it to us?

the bible states that when we get jesus, we get all spiritual blessings, that includes the HS indwelling us, so does God grant 1/2 of the Spirit to the"saved" and the full amt to the baptized ones?