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Two contradictory teachings.
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
Yet two things may seem contradictory from man's perspective, but from God's they both can be true. An example is election/ predestination and volition. ALL that the Father gives to the Son will come John 6:37. At the same time man must by volition choose to repent/come to God, Acts 20:21.
Yep.
....the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:13
....by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3:20
One is now!
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
All we need now to complete the picture is glorification!
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
See if you put it in the right order(not you redneck), there is no contradiction... Brother Glen
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Baptizo
Member
The point Paul was making is that if the law must be kept at all then all the law must be kept.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I don't know if you want me to say this kind of thing, or not...;
...."the doers of the law shall be justified", however,
since "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified"...
those souls that would be attempting to be "doers of the law"
had better be doing a flawlessly Perfect Job of it, right(?)
(just as Baptizo said, in the last post, #5)
or they can plan to forget about ever dreaming that they "shall be justified",
in that way, as they are attempting to be "doers of the law" (and can't be).
Ro 2:13, Ro 3:20, Ro 2:13
...
THAT'S GREAT. That is the point after all.
I had seen it as them doing the law, in order to please their fellow man
and that, in that way, they were 'justified', BEFORE MEN who saw their good
outward works that they did, but I hadn't gone far enough
to see what's really there as the Message from God.
I love it. Thank you.
Beautiful.
@Alan Gross
NOT even in the context! These were DOING BY NATURE the things of the law because the law was written in their hearts, in the same vein as the ‘fulfillers of the law’ Romans 13:8-10
NOT even in the context! These were DOING BY NATURE the things of the law because the law was written in their hearts, in the same vein as the ‘fulfillers of the law’ Romans 13:8-10
Baptizo
Member
The context of Romans 2 is how one is justified by law then it is explained why this is impossible. You claimed that there is a contradiction.
37818
Well-Known Member
Saying there be a contradiction without specific evidence can be deemed a falsehood.
Other words present the actual contradiction.
I absolutely did no such thing. I provided an example of this:
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What's the difference between 'DOERS" being justified by 'doing the law' (v 13) and God rendering to every man according to his 'WORKS' (v 6)? Patience in 'WELL-DOING' equals eternal life (v 7), glory and honor and peace to every man that 'WORKETH' good (v 10).
IMO, you're demonstrating the same asinine aversion to any mention of 'works' that's common among evangelicals.
The context of Romans 2 leads into 3:1:
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision? Ro 3
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Baptizo
Member
For the record, I do not believe in faith and works. I believe in a faith that works. There is consistency between this text and other texts that show us that.
Let me break this down.
Romans 2:1-2 - Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Paul is rebuking the Jews who are judging the Gentiles because they do not have the law. The law is what the Jews boast themselves in but really they are being hypocrites because they break the law daily.
Romans 2:3 - And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
The Jews thought they would be getting a free pass because they are the physical descendants of Abraham.
Romans 2:4 - Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
They were given all these blessings: Land, Law, Priesthood and the Temple yet they still chose to reject their Messiah.
Romans 2:5-7 - But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
This is what the Jews can expect if they choose to continue to remain under the law. The only way to obtain these rewards is by keeping the law perfectly but they do not. They have hardened their hearts
Romans 2:8-11 - But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.
Paul now is speaking to both Jews and Gentiles. If you do not believe in the Gospel then you do not obey the truth. If you do not have faith then Christ is unable to start a good work in you.
Romans 2:12-13 - For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
If you are a Jew who has the law and has broken it then you are no better than the Gentile who does not have the law to begin with. Both are equally condemned. Those who are attempting to be doers of the law had better be doing it perfectly in order to be justified.
Romans 2:14-16 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
The Jews had outward morals but no inward morals. The Gentiles had inward morals but no outward morals. The Gospel is to be believed with the heart and that is the basis for judgement where they will be declared righteous before the Father.
Again, NOT even in the context. The good or the bad works are coming from THE HEART, not one's faith or lack of. Another evangelical fallacy.
K. For the record, THE QUICKENED HEART is the source of both the saints' works and their faith.
The two hearts of Romans 2:
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
@Baptizo - good post.
Baptizo
Member
The problem for you is the subject of faith is nowhere to be found in the context of Romans 2, yet you keep trying to insert it.
K. That's not what I'm doing. I'm trying to get you to see the 'intent' of the phrase 'doers of the law'. Do you think Paul is presenting a hypothetical here? That such a person doesn't exist? How about you? Are you a 'fulfiller of the law' as presented in Romans 13:8-10?
It's not apples and apples.
....the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:13
....by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3:20
The one is 'of the spirit', the other is 'of the letter' (2:29).
I assure you, if God has wrought within, circumcised your heart and placed His law upon it, you are a Jew inwardly, and a 'doer and fulfiller of the law'.
Yep.
2 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt 7
8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13
8 Howbeit if ye fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: Ja 2
I think I'm recognizing the work of the Spirit in the context more than you are.
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Baptizo
Member
The WHOLE context of Romans is how one is justified by FAITH, not by works of the law.
My interpretation is one that does not have a contradiction between two specific passages.
No, that's NOT the whole context of Romans, in fact it's a rather small portion of it, and according to Romans, 'faith' is only one element of our justification:
3 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8
You still think I do? Really?
There's a WHOOOOLE lot more to Paul's 'Gospel Of God' than justification by faith:
Romans 1:
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
4 who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord,
10 making request, if by any means now at length I may be prospered by the will of God to come unto you.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.
Romans 2:
2 And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things.
3 And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written.
Romans 3:
2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God.
3 For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God?
5 But if our righteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.)
7 But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;
Romans 4:
20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God,
Romans 5:
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
5 and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
15 But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.
Romans 6:
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 7:
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:
7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 9:
4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
26 And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God.
Romans 11:
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out!
Baptizo
Member
Yes, I agree. That’s not what we were talking about. The OP opened this thread to discuss contradictory teachings and you said Yep, Romans 2:13 and Romans 3:20. I can’t accept contradictions. Maybe you can but I have to hold the World of God to a higher standard. Since God’s Word cannot contain a lie I have to carefully examine wording to see if a hypothetical argument is being presented and compare scripture with scripture.
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