Two good arguments for a Pretrib Rapture

[OldRegular]

Deut. 4:29-30 is not the so-called Great Tribulation time but a prophecy of the Babylonian exile. It's irrelevant.

Jer. 30:4-11 is talking immediately about the exile as well though it does point forward to the time when Christ would be established as King over his people. But you're assuming that the kingdom must be literal physical Israel. The use of Amos 9 in Acts 15 shows that the apostles saw the gathering of the church, Jews and Gentiles in Christ, was the ultimate fulfillment of the regathering of Israel.

Dan. 8:24-27 is not about the end times specifically. Though it may prefigure it.

Dan 12:1-2 is about the resurrection to eternal life and eternal death. Both come at the end of this time of trouble. There is nothing definitive regarding the tribulation here at all.



Matt. 13:30, 39-42 actually argues against your position. The harvest occurs at the very end of the age and the weeds (unbelievers) are seen as being gathered first and burned then the wheat (believers - the church) brought into the barn. Of course both happens on the same day, the day of harvest. The wheat isn't gathered some years before the weeds are destroyed. Has nothing at all to do with the tribulation and clearly paints a picture of the believing and unbelieving residing together until the very end of the age - not the believing being removed a couple years before hand. It's interesting that you cut off verse 43 since that verse shows that the righteous will shine in the Father's kingdom at the same time as the wicked are burned.

Matt 13:48-50 same as above only the imagery is fish instead of wheat. The good and bad are together until the very end. No pre trib rapture even hinted at.

Matt 24:15-31 if you want to interpret this as the actual end of the age and the physical second coming, then you need to pay attention to what Jesus actually said, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" he would gather the elect. He's talking to the disciples and in verse 14 he refers to the preaching of the gospel. Clearly the idea is that the church will be present and endure through this tribulation not be rescued out of it beforehand.

1 Thess. 1:9-10 I'm not sure what this has to do with the tribulation. Unless you assume wrath in verse 10 is the "Tribulation." The wrath we are saved from is hell not tribulation. Also, Paul is telling the Thessalonian church that they are looking for the return of Jesus in the flesh, not an invisible "coming" where they go to him instead.

1 Thess. 5:4-9 Same as above. Wrath means hell and condemnation not tribulation. We are appointed to salvation (eternal life) not wrath (condemnation). Also Paul again argues for the believing to be watchful for Christ's return as we are children of the day in contrast to the wicked who are "asleep" as children of darkness. The imagery is a single return where some, the church, expected it. The rest, the wicked, are caught completely by surprise and suffer wrath.

2 Thess. 2:1-11 completed undoes the pre-trib rapture. It does not support it. Chapter 1 of 2 Thess shows that Christ will return, physically, to take vengeance on the unbelieving and at the same time be glorified in those who believe - that is the church. Can't be pre-trib, it's impossible. Chapter 2 continues that theme and says the ay of the Lord is the day of our "gathering to him", clearly the rapture. The day of the Lord has already been seen as when he comes to judge the unbelieving. Chapter 2 continues to show that Jesus will return after the apostasy and the appearing of the "son of destruction."

Rev. 4-18 I'm so sick of this argument I'm not even going to bother responding to it.

Excellent response brother B. As you point out the parable of the wheat and tares is one of the strongest arguments against the pre-trib-rapture.

 

[DHK]

What a nice cozy family reunion of the anti-pre-trib gang. You guys have a wonderful time posting your views with no one here to present the other side. It sounds like a real "feel-good" thread. Really it should be in the "fellowship" forum, for there is not much debate here. Carry on the love fest. :love2:

 

[RLBosley]

What a nice cozy family reunion of the anti-pre-trib gang. You guys have a wonderful time posting your views with no one here to present the other side. It sounds like a real "feel-good" thread. Really it should be in the "fellowship" forum, for there is not much debate here. Carry on the love fest. :love2:

 

[OldRegular]

What a nice cozy family reunion of the anti-pre-trib gang. You guys have a wonderful time posting your views with no one here to present the other side. It sounds like a real "feel-good" thread. Really it should be in the "fellowship" forum, for there is not much debate here. Carry on the love fest. :love2:

You really mean you are not going to do a "war dance", "shuffling your feet", to throw up a cloud of dust, obfuscating the issue! So you finally agree there is really nothing to debate about: can it be possible that the "progressive dispensationalist bug" has bitten you?:godisgood:

 

[evangelist6589]

What a nice cozy family reunion of the anti-pre-trib gang. You guys have a wonderful time posting your views with no one here to present the other side. It sounds like a real "feel-good" thread. Really it should be in the "fellowship" forum, for there is not much debate here. Carry on the love fest. :love2:

I was out witnessing on the streets and just got back.

 

[DHK]

You really mean you are not going to do a "war dance", "shuffling your feet", to throw up a cloud of dust, obfuscating the issue! So you finally agree there is really nothing to debate about: can it be possible that the "progressive dispensationalist bug" has bitten you?:godisgood:

No, OR; Why spoil the "aura"?
I wouldn't want to ying your yang, or
Tai your chi.

Don't want to ruin the decor here.

 

[OldRegular]

No, OR; Why spoil the "aura"?
I wouldn't want to ying your yang, or
Tai your chi.

Don't want to ruin the decor here.

A moderator with compassion!:godisgood:

 

[convicted1]

Hands down, best post in this thread. :thumbsup:

 

[blessedwife318]

1. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).

2. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18)

So others what do you say? Did I tell you to buy a book? NO I did not because I know eschatology better than I know other theological arguments. Books are quite helpful, but the scripture is the authority.

So Evan since you know Eschatology so well are you going to come back to this tread and answer the objects brought up?

 

[gigabyte71]

So Evan since you know Eschatology so well are you going to come back to this tread and answer the objects brought up?

^^^ This, except I would like to first see him defend his position, not simply post a couple of scripture references without any real commentary on them.

 

[blessedwife318]

^^^ This, except I would like to first see him defend his position, not simply post a couple of scripture references without any real commentary on them.

That would be nice, but I wouldn't hold my breath

 

[RLBosley]

1. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).

2. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18)

So others what do you say? Did I tell you to buy a book? NO I did not because I know eschatology better than I know other theological arguments. Books are quite helpful, but the scripture is the authority.

Evan, do you have any response? An acknowledgment that I even responded? Anything?

Hello???

Is this thing on?......

 

[OldRegular]

Evan, do you have any response? An acknowledgment that I even responded? Anything?

Hello???

Is this thing on?......

Keep one thing in mind Bro. Bosley. Evan knows eschatology. He said so!

So others what do you say? Did I tell you to buy a book? NO I did not because I know eschatology better than I know other theological arguments. Books are quite helpful, but the scripture is the authority.

So where is that Scripture that teaches a pre-trib-rapture Evan?

 

[RLBosley]

Keep one thing in mind Bro. Bosley. Evan knows eschatology. He said so!

He did indeed.

Frankly I'm not holding my breath for any kind of response. That said, you know what, if he can prove a pre-trib rapture to me I'll believe it. If he can actually prove it from scripture then I'll change.

Of course he's got quite the up hill battle as I left the pre-trib position due to my study of scripture.

 

[OldRegular]

He did indeed.

Frankly I'm not holding my breath for any kind of response. That said, you know what, if he can prove a pre-trib rapture to me I'll believe it. If he can actually prove it from scripture then I'll change.

Of course he's got quite the up hill battle as I left the pre-trib position due to my study of scripture.

I have been asking for such Scripture since 2004!???????

 

[RLBosley]

I have been asking for such Scripture since 2004!???????

:laugh: I think you'll be asking for a long time.

 

[blessedwife318]

He did indeed.

Frankly I'm not holding my breath for any kind of response. That said, you know what, if he can prove a pre-trib rapture to me I'll believe it. If he can actually prove it from scripture then I'll change.

Of course he's got quite the up hill battle as I left the pre-trib position due to my study of scripture.

Ironically for me most if not all my books on Eschatology are from a pre-trib point of view and very time I look at one I become even more convinced that the pre-trib view is wrong.

 

[RLBosley]

Ironically for me most if not all my books on Eschatology are from a pre-trib point of view and very time I look at one I become even more convinced that the pre-trib view is wrong.

:laugh: I believe it. I still have all my pre-trib reference books, though I did get rid of the Left Behind series. I couldn't take that much false teaching and bad writing in my office...

In related news, I just bought my first book exclusively on Amillennialism. Haven't read it yet, but looking forward to it.

 

[blessedwife318]

I really should read an amill book. I consider myself pre-mill but I have been looking at different viewpoints recently

 

[RLBosley]

I really should read an amill book. I consider myself pre-mill but I have been looking at different viewpoints recently

Same here though have been leaning more amill lately.

I've seen several people recommend A Case for Amillennialism by Kim Riddlebarger as a good book to get a better handle on the view so I picked it up. Hoping to get around to it next month.