Two parts of baptism?

[Frank]

Briguy:
In the case of the ruler, he was living under the old law. God forgave sins as he desired under that covenant.( Mk. 2:6-11). The ONE thing that kept the ruler out of the kingdom was his coveteousness.
Today, the ONE thing that will keep many out of the kingdom will be their failure to obey the Gospel of Christ.( Romans 1:16,Hebrews 5: 8,9).
In the case of the jailer, you left the jailhouse to soon! One of the rules of interpretation of scripture is to read the whole context, both immediate and remote. In your post you stopped reading at verse 31. However, in your haste to get out of the jailhouse, you failed to be properly exonerated of your sin. In verse 33, the jailer was BAPTIZED for the remission of sins. ( Acts 2:38).
The jailer understood, as did Paul who had done the same thing the jailer did in Acts 22:16, the words of Jesus in Mark 16:16," He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned." People who make conclusions before examining all the evidence will be in a lot more trouble that those who get out of the jailhouse acquitted by the blood of Christ contacted in immersion in water. ( Rev. 1:5, Eph. 5:26, Acts 22:16). The jailer and Paul understood Jesus in Mark 16:16. It is you who are confussed about getting out of the jailhouse of sin.

Frank

 

[MEE]

As for your example based on my example. No example is perfect but do you think that if a groom dies after the wedding ceremoney but before he signs the "paper" he is not married?

In Christ,
Brian

Good question! Some lawyer would love to get ahold of that one.

MEE

 

[SolaScriptura]

Someone explain why Jesus said: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved[]" (Mark 16) since some believe Jesus never mentioned Baptism with salvation.

Simple: those people are wrong - read 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6 (the whole chapter - close attention to "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine")

(Rom 6:17-18) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. {18} Being THEN made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Paul places the Romans' freedom from sin AFTER they obeyed "that form of doctrine." Based on the fact that the context of chapter 6 is the significance of baptism "that form of doctrine" is obviously baptism (or at least includes baptism). Thus, he says "ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine...being THEN made free" - freedom coming AFTER obedience. When were they freed? THEN. When is 'then'? After they obeyed "that form of doctrine."

[ June 10, 2002, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[Briguy]

Acts 2 (KJV)

"2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
2:39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
2:40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
2:41: Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
2:42: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
2:43: And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
2:44: And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
2:45: And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
2:46: And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,"

Ok Frank, and MEE and Sola. You talk big about Baptism but read what Peter said in the context of the whole idea he was sharing. I am assuming that you guys have sold your possessions and goods right? You three have ALL things in common right? You go worship in the temple daily right?
You saved yourself from this perverse generation right? I get accused of taking a verse out of context when I am taking the whole of scripture into account. You guys on the other hand seem to just pull a verse out that says what you want regardless of what is said in other parts of the Bible. Not to many verses after Acts 2:38 salvation is mentioned without reference to Baptism. And what about that save yourself thought that Peter says, Save yourself?? That is what it says. Well enough said, you get my point I am sure.

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

[Frank]

Briguy:
The Bible does not teach I must sell all my things. If this were true, and it is not, John would have had no home in which to take Mary as his mother, as Jesus had so obligated him. ( See John 19:26,27). The church would have not been able to assemble in the homes of faithful brethren. ( See Romans 16: 1-5).
The Bible does not teach I must assemble daily in the temple. It does teach I must assemble on the first day of the week. ( Acts 20:7, Hebs. 10:25).
All Christians have saved themselves from this untoward generation when they obey the gospel spoken by the apostles in he same chapter you have posted. ( see Acts 2:38-41). Save your selves is axiomatic of having an active faith in complying with the terms of the gospel.( Acts 2:38-41).
Furthermore, I teach and practice the apostles doctrine because they taught it by the authority of Christ.( Mat. 28:18-20, Jn. 16:13 Mat. 16:19, Mat. 18:18, I Cor. 11:1,2, II Tim. 1:13 II Thes. 2;15, Phil. 3;16,17).
Finally,you not only take scriptures out of context, but you fail to take the totality of the evidence and rightly divide it. Your last post about Acts 2 makes this abundantly clear.
Brian, rules of interpreation require the following:
1. What do the words in the passage mean?
2. What does the passage communicate?
3. What is the immediate context?
4. What s the remote context?
5. Who is talking to whom?
6. How does this pasage harmonize with other passages on this topic?
7. What is the application for me?
I hope this will help you in your sincere search for the truth.
Frank

 

[SolaScriptura]

Briguy: You'll defend Baylon the whore but attack true Christian baptism. I'm not even going to waste my time.

 

[Briguy]

Hi Frank, I kind of thought when I wrote that last post that it would be taken the way you took it. When I debate scripture meanings I find myself trying to make a point all of the time. Of course we are not required to do the things I said. The general point was that Peter was engaged in a teaching opportunity when he was speaking and he threw a lot of ideals out there to those he was teaching. My point was simply that Peter was making a point, now do you get my point

Frank, I believe with all my heart that I do not take scriptures out of context. I use the methods you mentioned, maybe not thinking it out with those things always in my mind but for the most part I interpret like you do. You come across as very legalistic and not very nice. It is clear to me that each of us need to grow in grace and truth. You act as if you have arrived and have nothing to learn. I have made some great points and you have never admitted that I have made good points or that my arguments are sometimes logical. When the two men went to pray at the temple, one spoke highly of himself and one fell on his face and begged God for mercy. One walked away closer to God and one did not. Obviously you know which one God accepted. The question is: Which one are you Frank?
This post is meant in Christian love Frank, not to be mean or anything. (Of Course to you I am not a Christian, even though I place my trust in Christ for the forgiveness of my Sin and have been born again by his grace. )

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

Sola wrote:
"Briguy: You'll defend Baylon the whore but attack true Christian baptism. I'm not even going to waste my time. "

Sola, Wow! What did I say that lead you to that conclusion? It is never a waste of time to help eachother grow in wisdom and knowledge. You have alot to offer and now you seem to be saying I am way out in left field or something. Sorry I offended you, it was not my intention at all. I was just trying to provoke thought.

Take care,
Brian

 

[Frank]

Brguy:
I have simply defended the truth of God's Word. I have pointed out inconsistencies and contradictions in the things you post to teach ,not to condemn. I have not judged your sincerety. One may be sincere and be sincerely wrong or right.
I will let you judge the intentions of others and their heart. It seems you are clairvoyant in this.
If you do not wish to discuss the Bible with me, that is ok. I have made every attempt to present the truth aginst error. I make no apology for this. If I have offended you in my presentation,I am sorry. It was not intentional.
Frank

 

[Frank]

Briguy:
As for your post of Acts 2. I have read it more than one time. You challenged those of us who believe in baptism( Mee, Sola and Frank). I could misconstrue that to mean a personal attack. I did not take it that way. I simply responded to your assertions. You made the assertion we are to practice everything in the same way as those in Jerusalem. I simply demonstrated from the scriptures the fallacious and errroneous way in which the assertion was made. I provided sound advice about proper ways to interpret any Literature, especialy the Bible.
Brian, I recognize the truth and mention it on occasion. If you will read other posts, you will notice I have thanked those who have taught the truth. I have say amen to the truth and try to teach the truth against all forms of error.I have expressed my appreciation for those who have taught the truth on several subjects. Some of these folk I do not see eye to eye with on some subjects.
As for your contention that i think I know everything, It is simply an unfounded judgment on the heart of another. I am bold in preaching the truth. Paul said that is the way one should proclaim the gospel of Christ.( Romans 1:14-16, Eph. 6:20). My goal is to be perfect as my father in heaven is perfect.( Mat. 5:48). I want to know all the will of God.( II Tim. 3:16,17).Yes,lofty goals, but one must always strive ot enter in to the kingdom of God. ( Mat. 7:13,14). Have a good day.

Frank

 

[Briguy]

Frank said:
"I have simply defended the truth of God's Word. I have pointed out inconsistencies and contradictions in the things you post to teach ,not to condemn. "

Frank, the fact is I see inconsistances in your arguments as well. You post where scriptures are alot but seldom post the actual scripture. I just don't have time to read all the references you give. Most maybe way out of context for all I know. If you want to contiune this it is fine but how about posting one verse or two tops at a time to discuss but no matter what print the verses you use so I can examine them on the spot.

Frank, I have always thought you were sincere and I understand how you come to your conclusions based on some of the scriptures we have discussed. I feel you look at scripture with a doctrine in mind, much as the Catholic's do and then use scripture to pprove a point. I read scripture and base my conclusions on what I read. Oddly enough I am open to changing my mind on an issue if God's word proves to me what the truth is. When is the last time you have examined the word and realized you have been mistaken about something? Peter and Paul even stuggled some with certain doctrine. There were disagreements in the early church quite often if you think about it. I hope you are open to growth Frank.

Also, Paul did preach with boldness but he also said no matter what we do if we don't have charity, we are nothing.

Actually Frank you showed a small amount of charity in your last post to that I give you credit. I hope you continue on that course.

Thanks for the discussion,
In Christ alone,
Brian

 

[Frank]

Briguy:
If you do not know what the verses teach, how can you make rational conclusions? If you post a verse I will read it myself. It matters not if you cut and paste, I will get out my Bible and check it out.
I have given you a verse by verse discussion on baptism. It basically was ignored. It was not refuted. The response to the verse by verse discussion was," I think, I feel and My opinion."
I realize you are a busy man. However, take the time to try the spirits.( I Jn. 4:1). Otherwise, knowing the truth is impossible.( II Tim. 2:15). Have a good day.

Frank

 

[Sularis]

I go away and Briguy starts defending the whore? I hope she's got the "heart of gold" like Julia Roberts in "Pretty Woman"

Sola - you seem to me to be very similar to me

smart - arrogant - and impatient with those who refuse to agree with you. Stop it! You're taking my job!

I'll admit, there are times, when I read your posts, and other's that I cry out "Can't they SEE?"
We've argued Baptism and spiritual Gifts

Ive made the point that something that can be boasted about, and is a work, can NOT save.

Prayer doesn't save - but I have a wierd viewpoint on prayer - Jesus made an example of a boastful use of prayer

Rituals cannot save - They can be made into fancy works of art full of pomp and circumstance

(Water) Baptism cannot save - The Bible clearly states only one Baptism saves, and then it goes on and lists two. Water and Spirit. You say the water gets you the Spirit I say you do the water because of the Spirit.

I'll admit you whittled me into admitting a work saves us, but in order to stay true to the Ephesians passage, it has to be something of which there is no possible way man could glory, or take credit for it; despite the fact he did something

I stated Repentance is the work that you are looking for; but it is not a work of which most people would be proud - and its a work - a step that the demons wont go to. Demon's will believe, Demon's will get baptized, but Demons wont or perhaps cant repent.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Sularis, you say that repentance is the only thing other than faith required for salvation? Why then does Peter connect both repentence and baptism to remission of sins? I fail to see why you think anyone would glory in baptism. Why would anyone glory in baptism? Please explain it to me.

"Look at me! I got dunked under water! Now I DESERVE salvation! I've earned it by getting wet! YAY!" Have you EVER heard anyone say such a thing? I haven't.

Baptism is just as glory-less (as far as glory going to men is concerned) as repentence, in fact more so. People will point and laught "haha, that guy's soaking wet." In a modern society such as ours we are too dignified to get dunked - that's everyone's real beef with baptism.

Baptism puts a man into Christ, into his death, into his burial, and even into the likeness of his resurrection (Rom 6) and therefore saves by the resurrection of Christ (1 Peter 3:21) not by any power in the water. Where does the glory in baptism belong? It belongs to God! The water does nothing, but when you submit to God in doing it, he puts you into Christ, into his death, into his burial, and then raises you to walk in newness of life (read Rom 6) so all the glory is God's.

I hope I've never made it sound like man deserves any glory for baptism or that baptism earns salvation, because it doesn't. But, even if something does not earn salvation, it can be necessary to it. Romans 10:10 "...and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." As you said, repentance is necessary to salvation - well, so is confession. Do you think a man will be saved if he never tells anyone what he believes about Jesus? It's only those who confess Jesus that Jesus will confess to the Father. (Mt 10:32) What then? Aren't repentance and confession works? I guess you could say that, but the point is that they are necessary to salvation even though they do not earn it - it is still a gift, because confession does not make you deserving of it. It's the same with baptism - baptism does not make salvation into "wages." After baptism we are still as undeserving as before, so salvation is still a gift. Even so, it has a part to play in salvation.

Now, if someone were to teach that obedience to the law would render a person deserving of salvation, that would be false teaching and "works salvation." Saying, however, that something other than faith is necessary to salvation does not deny that salvation is a gift, nor that it is of grace & faith. Repentence, Confession, Baptism are necessary but do not make us deserving - they do not earn us wages. What do they do? The fulfill Christ's promises! They are also motivated by faith & grace.

(1) Unless you repent ye shall all likewise perish (Lk 13:3)
(2) He that confesses Me before men I will confess before My Father (Mt 10:32)
(3) He that believes and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16)

Now, some might compare teaching that baptism is necessary to teaching that circumscision is necessary, but notice the difference. Did Jesus make any promise about circumscision? No! Well, there's the difference - he made one about baptism. Did Jesus make any promise about sabbath-keeping? No - he made one about confession. Did he make any promise about ____? Well, he made one about repentence. etc.

[ June 20, 2002, 03:55 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
when you submit to God in doing it, he puts you into Christ, into his death, into his burial, and then raises you to walk in newness of life (read Rom 6) so all the glory is God's.

After baptism we are still as undeserving as before, so salvation is still a gift. Even so, it has a part to play in salvation.

See how you contradict yourself. In the first part of your post you admit that getting baptized is nothing more than getting dunked, and getting wet. Then you say that in water baptism God himself puts you into Christ. That is the meaning of "he puts you into Christ'" isn't it? I have never seen that happen in my lifetime. When in our generation did God come down to earth to baptize people with water, putting them in Christ. You are talking of water baptism. First you say that water does nothing but make you wet; then you say that through the water God Himself appears and does the actual baptizing putting the person into Christ! That's quite some trick, and contradiction.

Then you have said salvation is a gift; but baptism is necessary for salvation--all in one breathe. If salvation is a gift, then baptism could play no part could it? Baptism is a work, and you would be working your way into Heaven by your baptism. Salvation then would no longer be a free gift, because you have done something for it; you have been baptized. You have made the work of Christ of none effect by your baptism. That is why Paul said, "For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."
DHK

 

[SolaScriptura]

If you'd read Romans 6, you'd see that while you are physically getting wet, God is spiritually putting you into Christ - "baptized into Christ" Paul says.

Even free gifts have requirements. I get a free gift every year on my birthday, but I've got to unwrap it. Does unwrapping it make me DESERVE it? NO! Same with salvation: Repentence, Confession and Baptism are required for the reception of the free gift, but it's still free and you still don't deserve it.

Will I now boast: "Look I'm smart enough to take the wrapping paper off! I deserve this gift now!"???

[ June 20, 2002, 04:01 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[Frank]

dhk:
All of God's gifts must be received.
1. The apostles received the miraculous gift of the Holy Spirt. How? The Bible says they had to wait in Jerusalem until Christ sent him. Luke 24:49, John 16:13. They were REQUIRED to wait in Jerusalem to receive the gift.
2. Our faithfulness to Christ is judged based on our reception of his words.The REQUIREMENT for reception is We must do as he directs us. Mat. 7:21, John 12:48,Luke 6:46, Titus 2:11,12.
We receive his words by doing what he says.
3. The gift of salvation must be received. How? It is received by the words of power. The Gospel. John 1:12, Romans 1:16, Romans 6:17, Hebrews 5:8,9 Mk. 16:16,Luke 13:3, Mat. 10:32, John 8:24.
It is not a question of if we are justified bygrace through faith. We are. The real question is WHEN do we recive the gift? Peter in Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48 and I Pet. 3:21 by inspiration says it is WHEN we are baptized. Gifts must be received. Jesus has told us how to and when we receive the gift of salvation. Some men receive it. Some men reject it. Some men return it. I have done all three with gifts given to me at Christmas.
Of course, if you believe you must have a direct operation of the Holy Spirit independent of the word of God none of the scriptures apply. Of course, this position is false also. ( James 1:18,21,I Pet.1:23, I Cor. 4:15).
Frank

 

[Sularis]

There are points in your post Sola - In which I see truckwide holes - I am only going to deal with what you asked me.

I work over the summer at an amusement park

Guess what part of the park is more popular
The water part - or the rides part - or the shows part?

Thats right the water park is the most popular area
And obviously you havent hung around kids that much recently. If they want to go on a water ride, they have a competition to see who gets wetter. Yes even the females with white shirts and white everything else (sigh its so frustrating to have to look at these 12-15 year old babies in that). Dont make no sense to me, but it happens daily, but thats just a symbol referring to wetness.

Lets actually deal with Baptism shall we?

I assume you have heard of specially made Baptism robes, that some people wear to their Baptism rather than the church ones. Of course some churches dont have robes or enough robes, so some people have gone out of their way, and made their own special robes, but thats only hearsay based on written, and spoken evidence.

In my own personal experience, Several people in my parent's church were baptized, and they started recieving privileges such as church keys, when they weren't members, advancement in churches clubs and organizations that were not merited. I however had not been baptized, and as I have said before it was a command of God, although at that time, I didn't know that.

Their attitudes, and behaviours were not very Christian as I still have the physical scars that they gave me on my body to prove my point. The Asst Pastor lied to me, about me, portraying me in a negative light, while those baptized people were recommended, and treated far and above what their actions merited.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Actually, I haven't ever heard of specially made Baptism robes. I'm sorry that you were mistreated. Are you really sure the Pastor elevated these people because they were baptized? Money talks you know. In my experience, an unbaptized rich guy will get treated better than a baptized poor man.

 

[Sularis]

Well I figured this post should back up
what I said about Baptismal robes/gowns
since you haven't heard about them

I will be posting a few links but I could post
way way more:

http://www.houseofrobes.com/baptism.html

http://www.mychristiandepot.com/apparelmall.html

http://www.mischiefkids.co.uk/christening/christening-gowns.htm

also proof of exterraneous ceremony for "baptism" Im sensing infant here - http://web.1earth.net/~abbey/Baptism_Order_Form.htm

http://www.specialoccasionapparel.com/

http://www.christianexpressionsuperstore.com/

Hope that helps you understand one of my reasons why water Baptism cannot save.

I could have posted more sites, but just type "Baptism Robes" and if you get less then 6 screens of results Id be surprised