Two parts of baptism?

[Brother Adam]

I think what Chemnitz means by emergancy is not nesseciarily the same thing as if you got hit by a car and need to go to the emergancy room. I believe what he is getting at is an emergancy baptism is one that is done as soon as possible, not one where you wait until the next scheduled baptismal service on Sunday at church.

Also, when considering Lutheran theology remember that baptism is a means of grace, but it is not the only means of grace. The Eucherist (Holy Communion), the preaching of the Word, and baptism are all means of grace- which is why Chemnitz is not saying that baptism is absolutely necessary to be saved. He's saying that he doesn't believe God is going to condemn you just because you didn't have a chance to be baptized. (Note this is similiar to the Catholics "Martyrs baptism").

Yes, I also agree baptism should be done by a pastor, but this is not absolutely necessary.

I don't believe that baptism is a meaningless symbol as some Baptist's make it out to be, but I also don't place the same emphesis that Lutherans and Catholics do on baptism, nor do I agree with infant baptism (but that is an entirely different discussion).

Thanks for the good wishes with the job. I have two interviews this week, both look promising. Teresa also got a job last week working for Vector selling Cutco knives.

Bro. Adam

[ July 15, 2002, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Brother Adam ]

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:


I don't believe that baptism is a meaningless symbol as some Baptist's make it out to beBro. Adam

A quick comment Brother Adam. I nor any Baptist that I know, and surely our Preacher, has said anything about baptism as being meaningless. In fact, it is the opposite as it is always encourged. The difference is that we do not believe that it is part of salvation to enter Heaven. All who believe but haven't been baptised WILL make it to Heaven. The rewards will be much less and I still adhere to the FACT that infant baptism is virtually meaningless, Luthern or not. Again, I will ask the Lutherns was Jesus baptised as an infant, and if not, was He wrong? Is baptism important, YES! As a show of your belief to others.

God Bless............Alex

PS: For what it is worth, I have been baptised twice in two different denominations. The first time for the love of a young woman, the second, for God. So when you see someone baptised, it could be for other reasons known only to the invidual and God. We onlookers would say AMEN!

 

[Chemnitz]

All who believe but haven't been baptised WILL make it to Heaven. The rewards will be much less and I still adhere to the FACT that infant baptism is virtually meaningless, Luthern or not. Again, I will ask the Lutherns was Jesus baptised as an infant, and if not, was He wrong? Is baptism important, YES! As a show of your belief to others.

No, he wasn't baptised as an infant. It was also a different baptism, so it really doesn't apply to Christian baptism. I'm sorry you think so little of the promise of baptism that you only see the external confession.

 

[Briguy]

Hi Alex, obviously, I agree with you and actually Adam does too that Baptism and salvation are seperate issues. There is no way I will ever believe that the two are joined together. I also do not see it as a command or else I would have been believer Baptized. On the other hand I would not tell people not to do it either. If they think for them it is the right thing to do by all means they should be baptized. I have seen people, a couple last year in fact, get into the water of Baptism one week and end their marriage a couple months later. One of the people isn't following after God at all right now from what I understand. There is no transformation in the water. How many people who are atheists now were infant Baptized? How many of the young people who love to party and who have more holes in their bodies then 10 pounds of swiss cheese have been infant Baptized? How many people my age never ever go to church or read the Bible but were infant baptized? How many adults that were Baptized as adults never think about God anymore. In the catergories I just mentioned there are hundreds of thousands of people. No magic, no change because of the water. The water of baptism is only water. Belief, trust by faith in the blood of Jesus to forgive sins is what transforms lives. If Baptism of infants transformed there would not be hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of people who over the years have been Baptized but have nothing at all to do with God and live sinful lives. And then how many examples are there of people adult Baptized who walk away from God? thousands of people like this as well.

JESUS TRANSFORMS, WATER GETS PEOPLE WET!!!!!

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

[Sir Ed]

Brian, I can't think of anyone who thinks that Baptism can change how a person acts.

That is the point of Baptism. We are sinful creatures who God claims through Holy Baptism. Guess what; if God claims you through a "decision for Jeessuuuuus" moment, you will still be a sinner also.

 

[Chemnitz]

Brian, I can't think of anyone who thinks that Baptism can change how a person acts.

That is the point of Baptism. We are sinful creatures who God claims through Holy Baptism. Guess what; if God claims you through a "decision for Jeessuuuuus" moment, you will still be a sinner also.

I can name lots of people who made the "decision for Jayzus" who are drunkards, pagans, and hypocrits. Brian seems to think that baptismal regeneration means we come out of baptism perfect little angels. Luther was on to something when he said "simul peccator et sanctus est". The reason there are so many people who have been baptized and are now walking in the shadow of sin is because they are still sinners, they can still walk away from the free gift. Just like all the people who "made the decision for Jayzus and went up to da altar for da altar call" who are no more saved than satan. You cannot base your evidence against baptismal regeneration on those who have refused the free gift offered by God.

If it were just water yes we would only get a wet sinner, but it is not just water. Baptism is the water and the Word and that my friend has power. In baptism, God has promised the free gift of the sacrafice of Jesus. All we have to do is not walk away from that gift.

[ July 16, 2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

[Briguy]

Chem, The point is that the "act" of Baptism obviously in itself has no power. The infants, in particular, are not coming from the baptismal service any different then they went into it. If they were different when they came out so many would not go astray. If you look at it honestly and Chem, I believe you are an honest person so I think you can, you would have to admit that it is probably well over half of the infants Baptized (in all denominations that baptize infants) have little to nothing to do with God when they get older. If Baptism had power or God rather powered Baptism this would not be the case. I am not talking about people here who fail to sin because they are sinners (Paul said he is the chief of sinners, I, too sin everyday in a variety of ways, by thought, word, and deed) I am talking about those folks who live very ungodly lives. Heavy drinking, swearing, pornography, etc... can be symptoms of the type of people I am refering to. Think about it, that tremendous church service where the child is baptized has no effect on way over 50% of the people who get Baptized as infants. Please let that fact speak to your heart.
More later I hope,

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

Oops, one more thing. In Joshua it says "Choose this day who you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord."

I am not promoting the, decision for Jesus thing or the, sinners prayer, as somehow those things, while well intended, have been distorted and over used in recent years.

Based on the verse above we do have a responsibilty and a part in the salvation process, in terms that we must place our "trust" in what was done for us on Calvary.

Ed and Chem, I know how annoying the preachers who stretch out the name of Jesus can be. I don't even like to write His name that way because it seems disrespectful, more or less say it. Those preachers are most likely poorly trained but in many cases well intended so it just kind of seems wrong of you two to mock what has been a real life changing experience for many.

In Love and Truth,
Brian

[ July 16, 2002, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

 

[Brother Adam]

Definition Time-

Remember Briguy that a Lutheran sees a sinner not a person who sins alot. To Lutherans our human tendency is a state of being. They don't focus so much on our induvidual acts, but on our state as a fallen humanity. Lutherans believe that baptism is an act of God that brings the person into a relationship with Him, and one of the ways that this is accomplished is through baptism. Later on in the persons life, according to Lutherans and Catholics, the person can make an intellectual decision to keep walking that walk with God (in which they go through a process called "confirmation") or they can choose to cut it off and again become a lost soul.

Bro. Adam

(source: Evangelical Lutheran Church Q&A page)

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by The Briguy:
Oops, one more thing. In Joshua it says "Choose this day who you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord."

Were there any children or infants in Joshua's house? This verse could also be used to support infant baptism.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by The Briguy:
Oops, one more thing. In Joshua it says "Choose this day who you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord."

Were there any children or infants in Joshua's house? This verse could also be used to support infant baptism.</font>[/QUOTE]Not really since this is under the Old Covenant. You could use it to support infant circumcision but not infant baptism.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:

Were there any children or infants in Joshua's house? This verse could also be used to support infant baptism.

Your supposition seems to be a bit ridiculous, unless God did a miracle in Joshua's body that was even greater than Abraham or Sarah's when Sarah conceived Isaac. The statement made in verse 15 was right before he died at one hundred and ten years old, hardly a time of life that he would be having infants in the house. As for others of his extended household, the advice or admonition is always directed to the head of the household-- a man. I don't know of any infants that are heads of households.
DHK

 

[SolaScriptura]

Something I've never understood is why those who beleive in original sin and that baptism washes away original sin baptize infants. If the parents original sin is gone, how can their children inherit it from them, seeing as how it is gone? Infant baptism is so convoluted.

 

[Chemnitz]

Because the original sin is not gone it is still there, but it is a forgiven sin. That and baptism is not just for remission of original sin.

 

[SolaScriptura]

But if a sin is forgiven, isn't it also gone. Doesn't Jesus blood "take away sins"? Heb 10:11-12

 

[Sir Ed]

Think about it, that tremendous church service where the child is baptized has no effect on way over 50% of the people who get Baptized as infants.

Brian, I respect your opinion, so I have done as you asked and thought about it. I just can't agree. Nowhere does Scripture tell us that Baptism has any effect on our outward appearance or acts.

Adam, thank you for that great explanation. I think you hit the nail pretty close to the center of the head on talking about that Lutheran "perspective."

 

[Chemnitz]

Well thats the thing, while the sins of the parent are gone it does nothing for the fact that they still pass on the original sin in the sinful nature of the flesh.

 

[Star]

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the "SIN" of the world.

Does He take it away or not?

The sin of the flesh is afforded by the commandment,Where there is no law theres no trangression. Is this what was nailed to the Cross as well? The righteousness of God was revealed to those who did not have the law, doing by nature the righteous requirements of the law which clearly shows His law is written in their hearts. The external commandment did nothing but empower sin in sinful man. Heres where sin abounds, where the law made sin utterly sinful for its strength lies in the law.

Personally I need to get a better grip on understanding in my heart concerning these things because I know what this means to "a point" but further questions continue to follow close behind.

In Him Kim

[ July 17, 2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Star ]

 

[Brother Adam]

Originally posted by Sir Ed:

Adam, thank you for that great explanation. I think you hit the nail pretty close to the center of the head on talking about that Lutheran "perspective."

Sir Ed, Thank you for affirming that I am that close. I'm glad that I'm hitting the nail pretty close to the center of the head. LoL- I've met Lutheran pastors who have yet to be able to fully explain the Lutheran faith in words.

I think as some of you can tell I've moved from debating one side or another to trying to understand each others side and making it clearer for all of us to understand. I think we will see less anger in our discussions if we focus less on proving our own points and more on understanding each other.

Bro. Adam

 

[Star]

Bro Adam... THAT was wisdom, preserving the unity are we?

In Him Kim