Oh boy, there should be a chart laying around to explain all this...its like the old college tests of 'Compare & Contrast'
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Two Questions
- Thread starter thatbrian
- Start date
You paraphrased it which does not explain why this passage says that the sovereignty of God is defined as men do nothing and is completely passive in salvation or else God's sovereignty is wrecked. You have not made your case.
Paul stated that none of us seek after God in ourselves, as did Isaiah, correct?
You quoted a particular passage of scripture that you insist shows the the sovereignty of God is defined as you define it. I asked you to break down that passage of scripture you quoted and make a case that it defines the sovereignty of God that way.
Well, if Isaiah and paul define to us how human free will functions, my understanding makes biblical sense.
So then the original John passage does not define the sovereignty of God in the way in which you define it?
I completely agree. I've found that those who say, "I'm neither a Calvinist or an Arminian" are in one of two camps. The first, they really don't know much about this subject, and they say something like, "I follow the Bible, not men". The second group knows slightly more, and they just want to be contrary.
The number of people who understand both sides and come up as true Arminians (as you've described in your post) can be counted using my fingers and toes (which is how I normally count, so that works.)
No, and no.
Thank you, JDF.
No problem. But I didn't see the "don't believe in God's sovereignty" part until after I answered.
I most certainly do believe in God's sovereignty, so I hope I didn't skew your results.
You don't believe that God attempts to save all me, correct?
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Yes, God "draws all men", "commands all men everywhere to repent" is ''willing that all come to repentance'' and is ''not willing that any should perish''.
No, not all men will be saved.
No, not all men will be saved.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
..........Semipelagianism on the other hand was developed as a compromise between Pelagianism and the teachings of Augustine and others (commonly referred to as "Calvinism"), who taught that people cannot come to God without the regenerating grace of God.
Semipelagianism makes a distinction between the beginning of faith and the increase of faith. They believe in a small but exercisable kernel of faith that results in the outpouring of God's grace.
Most baptists, by saying "I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian" are, in essence, saying they stand in the middle, ground owned by Semipelagian soteriology.
I wonder if they realize by saying "I man neither" they are actually admitting to being Semipelagian.
They would be wrong..
God's grace comes first, and only AFTER the Holy Ghost convicts a sinner of sin, righteousness, and judgment. can that person exercise faith in Jesus Christ. But that is NOT the same as the "effacious" or "irresistable" grace thing because a person CAN resist the Holy Ghost and reject or "put it off". Oh yes, for those who don't yet know, I am neither "Arminian" nor determinist, fatalist, "particularist", Calvinist, or whatever one wants to call it.
Yes, we know. You are Semipelagian.
I see several problems with your answer. May I point them out for discussion?
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So God draws all men, but is incompetent to save them?
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Yes, we know. You are Semipelagian.
Um no, What I just explained to you contradicts "semi-pelagianism".
Semi-Pelagianism | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry
and I said......
Any soteriological system that posits that man exercises faith without first being regenerated is a synergistic system, i.e. man cooperates with God in salvation. You can call it semi-Pelagianism or not, it still boils down to the same thing.
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SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Synergism | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry
No, there is no human "effort" in salvation. The Holy Ghost draws a man convincing him of sin, righteousness and judgment and the person obeys by simply trusting in Jesus to save his wicked soul from Hell. there is no initiation or "effort" in that. A mute quadriplegic who can't do anything but blink could trust Jesus and there would be no perceptible "effort" at all.