they would see God giving saving Grace towards all sinners, and leave it up to them to accept/reject Christ.
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Two Questions
- Thread starter thatbrian
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Actually a Classical does not dogmatically have a stance on who God offers His Grace to. We lean much more heavily to Him not offering it to all in a way they can receive it. We definitely respect His Sovereignty almost to the extent a full Calvinist would. The real difference is in the view of depravity. We believe that man is totally depraved, but we believe that God allows depraved man the ability to seek Him. Of course, man can't find Him without His call to them. Classical Arminianism and Calvinism are actually quite close.
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Except that Calvinism define salvation as applying towards His elect as based upon God choosing them first, while Classic affirms the elect as the ones who decided to accept Jesus by their own will, by accepting Grace!
one view is that God elects us, other is that God waits upon us to elect ourselves.
It is a given that God is willing to save all that come to Him. What you and other Calvinist fail to explain is where in scripture is God not willing to save those who come to Him.
MB
That is correct, but I would bet you a cup of coffee that that error is repeated again, and again, even after you've explained it.
This is the frustration and lunacy. It's frustrating to have your views misrepresented, and it's lunacy that people are vehemently opposed to something they have very little understanding of. They hate what they do not even know.
Scripture please, I want this verse----->> "ALL WHO GOD DRAWS HE SAVES"
You might need a lawyer or computer coder or English teacher.
The Devil is in the Details.
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
No one can come to Jesus UNLESS the Father draws him, TRUE.
ALL who the Father DRAW come to Jesus, FALSE.
NO one can have a drink at my house unless God gives you a mouth!
So you can't drink at my house unless GOD has given you a mouth, TRUE.
All who God gives a mouth will have a drink at my house, FALSE.
Also people need to keep in mind, AT the Cross and Resurrection, ALL AUTHORITY has been given to Jesus Christ.
John 12
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
So we can see God drawing men, then Jesus drawing men. I don't see a case of the holy spirit drawing men.
I borrowed this from Martin Glynn. "
- The defining tenant of Arminianism is prevenient grace: not free will! We don’t even believe in free will as many seem to define it. We don’t hold that each person is born with a neutral free will, and has the power to effect their destiny. We hold that each person is incapable of coming to God on their own and it is only through the prevenient grace of God that our wills are freed to turn to God."
Ya but Calvinists gotta have their free will strawmen to attack, and "win" the argument.
What makes the sinner decide to accept Jesus, themselves or the will of God?
Are those the only two choices you are willing to consider? Ever hear of the black and white logical fallacy?
What about the ones Christ Him Self has drawn. He draws all men.
MB
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Refers to Him being lifted up upon the cross, correct?
In all honesty, most Calvinists butcher the views of Classical Arminians. Seems both sides share a lot of blame.
The difference is, as you have seen here, is that Calvinists can be corrected.
Some can. Some can't. Know it alls exist on both sides.