Two Views of Foreknowledge

[Yeshua1]

These assertions are not supported by scripture. Instead, they must be read into scripture.

1) Does John 1:12-13 say or suggest "unless you are born of God, you will not believe in Christ? Nope

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (NASB)

a) When do we become "children of God?" When we are placed in Christ (given to Christ) and are made alive (born anew). Therefore when we are given the right to become "children of God" is when God puts us into Christ spiritually.

b) The sequence presented in the passage is (1) we receive (put our faith in) Christ, (2) then God puts us in Christ. And this action (being placed in Christ and being spiritually born anew) was the result "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of God.

c) Therefore this passage says the opposite of the assertion, which is that unless we first "receive" (believe in His name) God will not cause us to become "children of God."

2) No verse or passage says God compels us to believe. Our faith is "accomplished" by (1) being open to God's word, (2) hearing, understanding, and being attracted (drawn) by the Father through the gospel of Christ, (3) and then after hearing and learning from the Father, fully committing to and being devoted to Christ as our God and Savior. Then, when and if God credits our faith as righteousness, God alone puts us into Christ spiritually.

3) Christ's birth, sinless life, death on the cross, and resurrection is the basis of our faith (which Christ authored at great price) and our faith in completely and fully in Christ and not also something or someone else, thus Christ is the finisher of our faith.

4) Yes we love God because He first loved us, for when we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

5) Foreknowledge refers to using or implementing knowledge acquired or formulated in in the past, therefore known beforehand. It never refers to intimate relationships or looking into the future.

6) God chooses for salvation those whose faith He credits as righteousness, thus we are chosen through or on the basis of faith in the truth.

7) Christ did not say the lost hate God at all times, and provided an illustration of the lost seeking God at Matthew 23:13.

8) Christ is not only the propitiation or means of salvation for us, He is also the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

9) Everyone given to Christ (placed into Christ spiritually) will be made alive, indwelt and never cast out.

Before all of this though, there is God's election of His own, and then His regenerating his own, order to be actually able to exercise faith in Jesus!

 

[Van]

Before all of this though, there is God's election of His own, and then His regenerating his own, order to be actually able to exercise faith in Jesus!

What we have here is a failure to comprehend. No verse says regeneration occurs outside of Christ. But we are made alive together with Christ. Since we are individually chosen through faith, we were not elected individually before we put our faith in Christ. And we were once not a people, therefore we could not have been chosen individually before we existed not as a chosen people. It is a lock.

Two different Greek words are translated as foreknown and foreknowledge. Both words refer to information acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present. So when a predetermined plan is implemented, it is according to foreknowledge. This is the only meaning. Efforts to say the word is akin to "foresee the future" are utterly bogus. Efforts to say the word refers to a preexisting intimate relationship are utterly bogus.

Review the eight places where the word is used, and only the utilization of prior knowledge fits all of them.

 

[Yeshua1]

What we have here is a failure to comprehend. No verse says regeneration occurs outside of Christ. But we are made alive together with Christ. Since we are individually chosen through faith, we were not elected individually before we put our faith in Christ. And we were once not a people, therefore we could not have been chosen individually before we existed not as a chosen people. It is a lock.

Two different Greek words are translated as foreknown and foreknowledge. Both words refer to information acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present. So when a predetermined plan is implemented, it is according to foreknowledge. This is the only meaning. Efforts to say the word is akin to "foresee the future" are utterly bogus. Efforts to say the word refers to a preexisting intimate relationship are utterly bogus.

Review the eight places where the word is used, and only the utilization of prior knowledge fits all of them.

We were chosen by God from eternity past, to be found in Christ, as we do literally nothing in order for God to save us! Its all grace, and it all God!

 

[Calminian]

Since God is sovereign and all things that come to pass were either directly determined by Him, or indirectly permitted by Him, would what actually happened be the only way could ever happen?

Yes, I believe so, since all was determined and decreed in eternity past, both the determination of worlds (circumstance) by God, and God's response to other agents. I believe in exhaustive definite foreknowledge.

 

[Calminian]

think when its states God foreknows someone, is to state to us that God knows us in a real sense, Just as Adam knew Eve as a person... God determined Himself to commit Himself and to know us in a personal Covenant relationship!

Yeah, I wouldn't have issues with this as you've stated it. I don't think most arminians would either.

 

[Scott Downey]

These assertions are not supported by scripture. Instead, they must be read into scripture.

1) Does John 1:12-13 say or suggest "unless you are born of God, you will not believe in Christ? Nope

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (NASB)

a) When do we become "children of God?" When we are placed in Christ (given to Christ) and are made alive (born anew). Therefore when we are given the right to become "children of God" is when God puts us into Christ spiritually.

b) The sequence presented in the passage is (1) we receive (put our faith in) Christ, (2) then God puts us in Christ. And this action (being placed in Christ and being spiritually born anew) was the result "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of God.

c) Therefore this passage says the opposite of the assertion, which is that unless we first "receive" (believe in His name) God will not cause us to become "children of God."

2) No verse or passage says God compels us to believe. Our faith is "accomplished" by (1) being open to God's word, (2) hearing, understanding, and being attracted (drawn) by the Father through the gospel of Christ, (3) and then after hearing and learning from the Father, fully committing to and being devoted to Christ as our God and Savior. Then, when and if God credits our faith as righteousness, God alone puts us into Christ spiritually.

3) Christ's birth, sinless life, death on the cross, and resurrection is the basis of our faith (which Christ authored at great price) and our faith in completely and fully in Christ and not also something or someone else, thus Christ is the finisher of our faith.

4) Yes we love God because He first loved us, for when we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

5) Foreknowledge refers to using or implementing knowledge acquired or formulated in in the past, therefore known beforehand. It never refers to intimate relationships or looking into the future.

6) God chooses for salvation those whose faith He credits as righteousness, thus we are chosen through or on the basis of faith in the truth.

7) Christ did not say the lost hate God at all times, and provided an illustration of the lost seeking God at Matthew 23:13.

8) Christ is not only the propitiation or means of salvation for us, He is also the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

9) Everyone given to Christ (placed into Christ spiritually) will be made alive, indwelt and never cast out.

You say Christ did not say the lost hate God at all times but not only did Christ assert that so also did Paul.

Mark 13:13
Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:17
Everyone will hate you because of me.

John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

Romans 1:29-31
29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

Romans 8
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Those who are in the flesh are hostile to God and Christ, they are at enmity with God and Christ, and they will not believe because they are of the flesh, they are not of God, not having been born again (regenerated by the Holy Spirit). To live in accordance with the Spirit means the Spirit has given to them life so that they are in Christ, they are alive to God in the Spirit, the others are all dead in their sins, and can not be submitted to God's law. They are lawless ones as is Satan their father.

 

[Yeshua1]

You say Christ did not say the lost hate God at all times but not only did Christ assert that so also did Paul.

Mark 13:13
Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:17
Everyone will hate you because of me.

John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

Romans 1:29-31
29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

Romans 8
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Those who are in the flesh are hostile to God and Christ, they are at enmity with God and Christ, and they will not believe because they are of the flesh, they are not of God, not having been born again (regenerated by the Holy Spirit). To live in accordance with the Spirit means the Spirit has given to them life so that they are in Christ, they are alive to God in the Spirit.

Jesus called the lost Pharisees as being the children of Satan, so he was not being PC back then!

 

[Van]

We were chosen by God from eternity past, to be found in Christ, as we do literally nothing in order for God to save us! Its all grace, and it all God!

Utter nonsense, if we had been chosen individually, then we were never "not a people." Scripture precludes your view.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus called the lost Pharisees as being the children of Satan, so he was not being PC back then!

Yes
Children of the devil do not believe in Christ and so then they can not be saved.
Children of the devil are not of God as they do not listen to Christ.
You must be born again as a child of God to be of God in order to come to Christ, all that the Father gives to Christ will come to Christ, they are first given , afterwards they believe.

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me,

John 8 NIV
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

John 8 NKJV
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Utter nonsense, if we had been chosen individually, then we were never "not a people." Scripture precludes your view.

Your being silly here, as you must be born again. Which means born into the family of God, so then that forms a people, a holy nation, His church, as they are a new creation! The old is gone, the new is here.

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Therefore they are become the people of God who were formerly not a people, not a holy nation.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

 

[Van]

You say Christ did not say the lost hate God at all times but not only did Christ assert that so also did Paul.

Mark 13:13
Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:17
Everyone will hate you because of me.

John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

Romans 1:29-31
29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

Romans 8
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Those who are in the flesh are hostile to God and Christ, they are at enmity with God and Christ, and they will not believe because they are of the flesh, they are not of God, not having been born again (regenerated by the Holy Spirit). To live in accordance with the Spirit means the Spirit has given to them life so that they are in Christ, they are alive to God in the Spirit, the others are all dead in their sins, and can not be submitted to God's law. They are lawless ones as is Satan their father.

1) When do the lost hate God? All the time? Some of the time? Which verse says the lost hate God at all times. None.

2) And your Romans 8 passage say those with their minds set on fleshly desires cannot please God, but does not say the lost cannot set their minds on God and other spiritual things.

3) Matthew 23:13 demonstrates the lost can some of the time seek God effectively.

 

[Van]

Your being silly here, as you must be born again. Which means born into the family of God, so then that forms a people, a holy nation, His church, as they are a new creation! The old is gone, the new is here.

Utter nonsense once again. Were those seeking God in Matthew 23:13 born anew? Nope And answer the question. How could we exist as "not a people" if we were chosen to be God's people before creation.

It is silly to deny the obvious.

 

[Van]

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Therefore they are become the people of God who were formerly not a people, not a holy nation.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Yes, these verses prove my view correct and the Calvinist view invalid, we were chosen individually before creation. Otherwise we would be "a people" and never "not a people."

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, these verses prove my view correct and the Calvinist view invalid, we were chosen individually before creation. Otherwise we would be "a people" and never "not a people."

No one is born saved, Van.

 

[Yeshua1]

Utter nonsense once again. Were those seeking God in Matthew 23:13 born anew? Nope And answer the question. How could we exist as "not a people" if we were chosen to be God's people before creation.

It is silly to deny the obvious.

Only the elect lost sinner will seek after the true God and find Him!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, these verses prove my view correct and the Calvinist view invalid, we were chosen individually before creation. Otherwise we would be "a people" and never "not a people."

No, in the mind of God we were already seated in high places in Christ, but not until we received Jesus as our Lord in this life did we become born again and now part of that royal priesthood and chosen people!

 

[Scott Downey]

1) When do the lost hate God? All the time? Some of the time? Which verse says the lost hate God at all times. None.

2) And your Romans 8 passage say those with their minds set on fleshly desires cannot please God, but does not say the lost cannot set their minds on God and other spiritual things.

3) Matthew 23:13 demonstrates the lost can some of the time seek God effectively.

But Scripture testifies that no one seeks for God.

Romans 3:10-12 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

Lost sheep do not seek for the shepherd. The Shepherd must go and get them.

 

[Yeshua1]

But Scripture testifies that no one seeks for God.

Romans 3:10-12 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

Lost sheep do not seek for the shepherd. The Shepherd must go and get them.

Jesus told us the HIS sheep will follow Him, so something must have happened to them in order to now be following Him...

 

[Van]

No one is born saved, Van.

What a waste. Did anyone say we are born saved? Nope. Deflection on display.
The Calvinist view is we were individually chosen as foreseen individuals before creation, but scripture precludes that view.