Two Views of Foreknowledge

[Van]

God has not cast away his people whom he knew beforehand. (snippet from Romans 11:2)

Yet another example where the Greek word (translated as foreknew) again refers to knowledge from the past (God's promise to Abraham concerning his descendants) which is being utilized in the present (God not casting away those known beforehand).

The correct way to determine the intended meaning of a word is to choose from its historical grammatical range of meanings that best fits the context of the verse.

 

[Van]

1Peter1:20
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

Once again we see the word refers to knowledge (Christ as the Lamb of God) acquired or formulated in the past (before the foundation of the world) being utilized in the present (for your sake.)

 

[Van]

2Peter 3:17
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

Yet another example of the same meaning, knowledge acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present.

 

[Van]

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Who are those that were known about beforehand? See verse 28. Those who had been called into the kingdom of His Son. When did God formulate His redemption plan? Before the foundation of the world, before creation. So the actual intended message is "For those whom He planned for beforehand, He also predestined..."

All these efforts to rewrite the text by redefining an obscure word to mean what Calvinist doctrine requires is as bogus as a 3 dollar bill.

 

[Calminian]

You're the one that brought love into it. But that foreknowledge is love is clear from Romans 8:28 ff and 1 John 4:19.

It's an alternative translation that many calvinists offer, but it is never an actual translation that used in Scripture of know of foreknow. Nor is love ever interchangeable with any of these translations it alters the meaning too drastically. Adam loved his wife is not the same as Adam knew his wife. This would change and confuse what that passage is referring to.

 

[Calminian]

No will of the flesh is part of God the Father giving to Christ His people.....

Indeed. Paul tells us that it is God who reckons (accounts, credits) faith as righteousness. Faith does not save us, but rather the sole act of God reckoning that faith as righteousness. Paul called believers ungodly to eliminate all boasting.

Rom. 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,​

He then accounts their faith as righteousness, given Him (God) all the glory and credit for their salvation. It's by God's will alone.

 

[Yeshua1]

More new questions, more effort to change the subject, more effort to avoid the questions asked. Denial and deflection on display.

How could we be "once not a people" if we had been chosen individually before creation to be God's people?

From the perspective of God, He knows who are His own people, who the elect already are, but from our perspective, that happens to us in our lives once received Jesus as Lord!

 

[Yeshua1]

No verse says regeneration occurs outside of Christ. But we are made alive together with Christ. Since we are individually chosen through faith, we were not elected individually before we put our faith in Christ. And we were once not a people, therefore we could not have been chosen individually before we existed not as a chosen people. It is a lock.

Two different Greek words are translated as foreknown and foreknowledge. Both words refer to information acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present. So when a predetermined plan is implemented, it is according to foreknowledge. This is the only meaning. Efforts to say the word is akin to "foresee the future" are utterly bogus. Efforts to say the word refers to a preexisting intimate relationship are utterly bogus.

Review the eight places where the words are used, and only the utilization of prior knowledge fits all of them.

Again, from the perspective of God on this issue, We are chosen and elected into Christ by will of God, he determined and chose to save us, but then when we receive Jesus as our Lord, that proves and conformed that election was sure and true!

 

[Yeshua1]

Let's take this one question at a time:
But how can there be alternate endings even possible?
Theoretically, all non-contradictory endings are "possible" and exist in a possible world (or possible state of affairs).
since the Lord either determines and causes or permits all that actually ever really happens?
The explanatory power of Middle knowledge is that it actually accounts for all of those options (other than "causes" perhaps).
God can exhaustively foreordain all that comes to pass, and grant genuine libertarian freedom if he knows what any one would do in any set of circumstances....if he brings about whatever circumstances any one finds themselves in at any point....

That's how it can be done.

It's coherent, it is Biblically supportable..(I would argue Biblically suggested). One then need neither to deny genuine freedom of choice (even real Libertarian freedom) and exhaustive foreknowledge and predestination of every event....every event.
It's a powerful explanatory tool.

That's one possible explanation of how it works.

Thanks, but how can God be really Sovereign and there also exists a libertine free will still?

 

[Calminian]

You continue to claim the lost seek for God, when scripture say they do not..

Scripture also says they seek God when God draws them. I think we need to be clear about exactly what the Bible teaches. Apart from God's grace and drawing no one would seek after God. But it's not correct to say people never under any circumstances seek God.

I think this whole debate is characterized by extreme statements on both sides.

 

[Yeshua1]

It's an alternative translation that many calvinists offer, but it is never an actual translation that used in Scripture of know of foreknow. Nor is love ever interchangeable with any of these translations it alters the meaning too drastically. Adam loved his wife is not the same as Adam knew his wife. This would change and confuse what that passage is referring to.

God foreknowing us is a direct determining of his will, to be in a relationship with us as being in a spiritual sense married to Himself in a Covenant!

 

[Calminian]

Thanks, but how can God be really Sovereign and there also exists a libertine free will still?

This is definitely an argument both calvinists and open theist make (perhaps the only place they agree). For them, it is impossible for free will to exist and exhaustive definite foreknowledge to exist. Calvinists, therefore, preclude free will, and open theists preclude foreknowledge.

Why they believe this so strongly, I'm not sure. I see no problem at all for God in this matter. He can both grant freedom and know definitely what free choices will be made.

 

[Yeshua1]

Indeed. Paul tells us that it is God who reckons (accounts, credits) faith as righteousness. Faith does not save us, but rather the sole act of God reckoning that faith as righteousness. Paul called believers ungodly to eliminate all boasting.

Rom. 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,​

He then accounts their faith as righteousness, given Him (God) all the glory and credit for their salvation. It's by God's will alone.

The basis of salvation is the will of God . by the Cross of Christ, and faith is our access to that saving grace, but even that faith is a gift from God towards us!

 

[Yeshua1]

Scripture also says they seek God when God draws them. I think we need to be clear about exactly what the Bible teaches. Apart from God's grace and drawing no one would seek after God. But it's not correct to say people never under any circumstances seek God.

I think this whole debate is characterized by extreme statements on both sides.

I would say that they seek after a god that they have made up to worship, a false god....

 

[Yeshua1]

This is definitely an argument both calvinists and open theist make (perhaps the only place they agree). For them, it is impossible for free will to exist and exhaustive definite foreknowledge to exist. Calvinists, therefore, preclude free will, and open theists preclude foreknowledge.

Why they believe this so strongly, I'm not sure. I see no problem at all for God in this matter. He can both grant freedom and know definitely what free choices will be made.

Why Calvinists deny that can happen, not possible even for God to do, is that the fall precluded man having any more real free will, due to our sin natures!

 

[Calminian]

God foreknowing us is a direct determining of his will, to be in a relationship with us as being in a spiritual sense married to Himself in a Covenant!

The problem for me with this understanding is the way things are laid out in Romans 8:29-30. Paul's says there that God predestined (determined) according to his foreknowledge. Foreknowledge comes logically before the decree. I also believe the word called in v. 30 carries the idea of choosing or naming. Foreknowledge, therefore, seems to be prior to all these things and simply means foreknowledge. God predestined and chose based on something he knew experientially in advance. That's the simple straightforward interpretation of the passage.

 

[Calminian]

I would say that they seek after a god that they have made up to worship, a false god....

Indeed, this is what those left to themselves, do.

 

[Scott Downey]

Scripture also says they seek God when God draws them. I think we need to be clear about exactly what the Bible teaches. Apart from God's grace and drawing no one would seek after God. But it's not correct to say people never under any circumstances seek God.

I think this whole debate is characterized by extreme statements on both sides.

People seek God after God makes them 'of God', just like Christ says in John 8. This is being regenerated, born of God so that they are then 'of God'.
People who remain 'of the devil' never seek God and Christ.

45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

If they were of God, then they would love Christ that God had sent.

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

God being their Father God, testifies that then they are His children, they are of God,born of God.

 

[Van]

From the perspective of God, He knows who are His own people, who the elect already are, but from our perspective, that happens to us in our lives once received Jesus as Lord!

Yet another assertion, yet another mistaken claim, yet another post devoid of reference to any scripture.

No one can claim to present "God's perspective" unless quoting scripture.

Redefining "foreknown" to mean something other than its scriptural meaning is bogus.

I provided the 5 places where the Greek word is used in scripture and all of them refer to knowledge acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present. Every one of them. But rather than accept the obvious, we get deflection and denial.

 

[Calminian]

People seek God after God makes them 'of God', just like Christ says in John 8. This is being regenerated, born of God so that they are then 'of God'.
People who remain 'of the devil' never seek God and Christ.

45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

If they were of God, then they would love Christ that God had sent.

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

God being their Father God, testifies that then they are His children, they are of God.

Those who truly have been saved will persevere. Eternal security. That's what these passages are saying. But they're not saying that God first saves, and then comes faith.

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.​

When asked, the apostles gave the logical order of belief and salvation.

Acts 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”​

If it were as you say, salvation then faith, he would not have answered this way.