Two Views of Foreknowledge

[Aaron]

It's an alternative translation that many calvinists offer, but it is never an actual translation that used in Scripture of know of foreknow. Nor is love ever interchangeable with any of these translations it alters the meaning too drastically. Adam loved his wife is not the same as Adam knew his wife. This would change and confuse what that passage is referring to.

*yawn*

 

[Van]

So per you. we become the elect of God when we trust in Jesus, and not before? Election based upon God seeing us then accepting Jesus?

Yet another utter nonsense post, misrepresenting my view and sidestepping answering the questions.

No one can claim to present "God's perspective" unless quoting scripture.

Redefining "foreknown" to mean something other than its scriptural meaning is bogus.

I provided the 5 places where the Greek word is used in scripture and all of them refer to knowledge acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present. Every one of them. But rather than accept the obvious, we get deflection and denial. Since we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, we were not individually elected until God chose us individually for salvation. We were not elect before God chose us for salvation. We were not chosen individually before creation because once we were "not a people." 1 Peter 2:9-10 This view of conditional election during our lifetime is true based on scripture.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

How can fallen sin natured humans still have libertine free will?

"Sin-natured" is Theo-philosophical mythology.
Libertine freedom is possessed by mankind because God made him that way.

 

[Calminian]

"Sin-natured" is Theo-philosophical mythology......

 

[Benjamin]

But how can there be alternate endings even possible, or so called Middle Knowledge, since the Lord either determines and causes or permits all that actually ever really happens?

Let's take this one question at a time:
But how can there be alternate endings even possible?
Theoretically, all non-contradictory endings are "possible" and exist in a possible world (or possible state of affairs).
since the Lord either determines and causes or permits all that actually ever really happens?
The explanatory power of Middle knowledge is that it actually accounts for all of those options (other than "causes" perhaps).
God can exhaustively foreordain all that comes to pass, and grant genuine libertarian freedom if he knows what any one would do in any set of circumstances....if he brings about whatever circumstances any one finds themselves in at any point....

That's how it can be done.

It's coherent, it is Biblically supportable..(I would argue Biblically suggested). One then need neither to deny genuine freedom of choice (even real Libertarian freedom) and exhaustive foreknowledge and predestination of every event....every event.
It's a powerful explanatory tool.

That's one possible explanation of how it works.

Yup, I'll add to that:

William Lane Craig explains, "It is up to God whether we find ourselves in a world in which we are predestined, but it is up to us whether we are predestined in the world in which we find ourselves."

Keathley explains a scenario that fits in with the above using the ambulance analogy. “Imagine you wake up and discover that you are in an ambulance being transported to the emergency room. You clearly require serious medical help. If you do nothing, you will be delivered to the hospital. However, if for whatever reason you demand to be let out, the driver will comply. He may express his concern, warn you of the consequences, but he will abide by your wishes. You receive no credit for being taken to the hospital, you receive all the blame for getting out. This is a picture of the Molinist view of salvation.”

Scripture shows through Counterfactuals of Creaturely Freedoms (CCF's) that that all things are not pre-determined according to God's foreknowledge in creation as being logical. Molinism (Middle Knowledge), by my perspective, is merely expressing these things (LFW) are logically possible within the type of knowledge God has (middle knowledge, not to exclude Him knowing all things) and giving explanations how this (logical conclusion) can be observed.

In the ambulance model it is confirming LFW it also dispels determinism. That fact that the “driver” expresses his concerns and warns of the consequences confirms that he knows what things will happen due to the patient changing the circumstances (CCFs) thereby maintaining foreknowledge while allowing for LFW…These things (LFW + foreknowledge w/o determinism) distinguish the Molinism (Middle Knowledge) model from other views. Seems to me the model is complete.

Molinism (Middle Knowledge) demonstrates a strong view of providence (Divine Providential Sovereignty) along with non-deterministic sovereign control down to the smallest details of God knowingly deciding to create certain worlds and yet maintains LFW and responsibility. If being accurate in maintaining necessarily true Divine and creaturely attributes and a high view of God’s sovereignty is what you want, then Molinism is the only game in town.

 

[Scott Downey]

Which is not what Paul believed. I realize this is what you believe, but I need Scriptural support which is explicit. If you want to argue for an efficacious grace prior to faith, I can see the argument, but not for regeneration before faith. You're in essence arguing one is regenerated but not yet saved until after faith. I don't see the Scriptural support for this position.

Again, there's the issue of the reckoning of faith. It's often ignored, but Paul mentions it often in Romans 4. God saves us by reckoning (crediting, accounting) our faith as righteousness. It's explicit, and therefore I can't ignore it.

Rom. 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Rom. 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Rom. 4:9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

Rom. 4:22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Gal. 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.​

The order is belief, then accounted as righteous.

Furthermore, the washing of regeneration is the work of the Spirt. Thus you can't have regeneration happing before the Spirit is received. This washing happens after faith, after receiving the Spirit who washes and regenerates us.

Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,​

Those verse describe the result of those that receive Him.
John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born (had been born) , not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 john 5:1 NKJV Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

1 John 5:1 ESV Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Given the right to be the children of God, simply means this is confirmed that they show themselves to be His children by what they do. It is akin to being sealed in the Holy Spirit, as a guarantee that you really are His child, the sealing and the right to be a child of God.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

The guarantee is of course for our benefit.

1 John 3, those that do the right thing, is obey God's command to believe in His Son. This is something that those of the world can not do. They can not obey the commandment to repent and believe in Christ, Acts 17:30-31 . In truth they can not obey any commandments of God due to the enmity that is in them against God. It is why you must first be born again to enter the kingdom of God, otherwise you can not obey God, and no one in the flesh is pleasing to God, BECAUSE of their disobedience to His commandments.

Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Very basically this verse proves that the flesh can not please God, as it can not obey what He says. And His commandment is to believe in His Son.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

 

[Yeshua1]

"Sin-natured" is Theo-philosophical mythology.
Libertine freedom is possessed by mankind because God made him that way.

Jesus stated that we in bondage and slaves to sin, is that libertine free will ?

 

[Yeshua1]

Those verse describe the result of those that receive Him.
John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born (had been born) , not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 john 5:1 NKJV Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

1 John 5:1 ESV Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Given the right to be the children of God, simply means this is confirmed that they show themselves to be His children by what they do. It is akin to being sealed in the Holy Spirit, as a guarantee that you really are His child, the sealing and the right to be a child of God.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

The guarantee is of course for our benefit.

1 John 3, those that do the right thing, is obey God's command to believe in His Son. This is something that those of the world can not do. They can not obey the commandment to repent and believe in Christ, Acts 17:30-31 . In truth they can not obey any commandments of God due to the enmity that is in them against God. It is why you must first be born again to enter the kingdom of God, otherwise you can not obey God, and no one in the flesh is pleasing to God, BECAUSE of their disobedience to His commandments.

Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Very basically this verse proves that the flesh can not please God, as it can not obey what He says. And His commandment is to believe in His Son.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

God requires that a sinner comes to jesus and trust in Him and His finished work to save them, and yet God also knows that the sinner cannot do that due to be in bondage to the sin nature, so He must be the one that enables them to be able to do what is required, hence the gift of faith and His election of his chosen to Christ!
Also looks like some here appear to be denying that we have real sin natures, or that we became spiritual dead as a result of the fall, and that type of theology will give bad understandings!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yup, I'll add to that:

William Lane Craig explains, "It is up to God whether we find ourselves in a world in which we are predestined, but it is up to us whether we are predestined in the world in which we find ourselves."

Keathley explains a scenario that fits in with the above using the ambulance analogy. “Imagine you wake up and discover that you are in an ambulance being transported to the emergency room. You clearly require serious medical help. If you do nothing, you will be delivered to the hospital. However, if for whatever reason you demand to be let out, the driver will comply. He may express his concern, warn you of the consequences, but he will abide by your wishes. You receive no credit for being taken to the hospital, you receive all the blame for getting out. This is a picture of the Molinist view of salvation.”

Scripture shows through Counterfactuals of Creaturely Freedoms (CCF's) that that all things are not pre-determined according to God's foreknowledge in creation as being logical. Molinism (Middle Knowledge), by my perspective, is merely expressing these things (LFW) are logically possible within the type of knowledge God has (middle knowledge, not to exclude Him knowing all things) and giving explanations how this (logical conclusion) can be observed.

In the ambulance model it is confirming LFW it also dispels determinism. That fact that the “driver” expresses his concerns and warns of the consequences confirms that he knows what things will happen due to the patient changing the circumstances (CCFs) thereby maintaining foreknowledge while allowing for LFW…These things (LFW + foreknowledge w/o determinism) distinguish the Molinism (Middle Knowledge) model from other views. Seems to me the model is complete.

Molinism (Middle Knowledge) demonstrates a strong view of providence (Divine Providential Sovereignty) along with non-deterministic sovereign control down to the smallest details of God knowingly deciding to create certain worlds and yet maintains LFW and responsibility. If being accurate in maintaining necessarily true Divine and creaturely attributes and a high view of God’s sovereignty is what you want, then Molinism is the only game in town.

The big problem is still though that you will have a situation where god is expecting the lost sinner to accept Jesus to get saved, and yet they very nature precludes that from happening! Libertine free will does not really save a person, instead, it keeps them being condemned!

 

[Van]

The big problem is still though that you will have a situation where god is expecting the lost sinner to accept Jesus to get saved, and yet they very nature precludes that from happening! SNIP

How were the men entering the kingdom in Matthew 23:13 if they were precluded from seeking God?

No actual answer will be forthcoming, just yet more change the subject questions.

 

[Yeshua1]

How were the men entering the kingdom in Matthew 23:13 if they were precluded from seeking God?

No actual answer will be forthcoming, just yet more change the subject questions.

You hold that the Pharisees could block the elect from getting saved?

 

[Calminian]

Those verse describe the result of those that receive Him.
John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born (had been born) , not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Yes, received then born. You're making my case.

1 john 5:1 NKJV Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,

and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

This doesn't make your case. Those who currently believe are born of God. This is an eternal security verse. Once believing always believing.

Given the right to be the children of God, simply means this is confirmed that they show themselves to be His children by what they do. It is akin to being sealed in the Holy Spirit, as a guarantee that you really are His child, the sealing and the right to be a child of God.

Exactly. These are eternal security verses and have nothing to do with the point you're trying to prove.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Which supports my position.

These are eternal security passages, once believing always believing. They say nothing to your point that regeneration precedes faith.

 

[Calminian]

Yup, I'll add to that:

William Lane Craig explains, "It is up to God whether we find ourselves in a world in which we are predestined, but it is up to us whether we are predestined in the world in which we find ourselves."...

I've read 2 of Craig's books on foreknowledge, which were helpful, but have to say, he says some disturbing things (like the above) and compromises on some very important issues. I would never frame it they way he does there. We are commanded to make our calling and election sure (confirmed), but never to cause our own predestination. These are not good quotes to repeat.

 

[Calminian]

...Also looks like some here appear to be denying that we have real sin natures, or that we became spiritual dead as a result of the fall, and that type of theology will give bad understandings!

Which I think is the fruit of Genesis compromise over the last hundred years. Very sad and unfortunate.

 

[Yeshua1]

Which I think is the fruit of Genesis compromise over the last hundred years. Very sad and unfortunate.

But predictable, as once satan attacked the bible and got even seminaries and famous Chrsitian authors to water it down, all sorts of bad theology has come sweeping into the church!

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, received then born. You're making my case.



This doesn't make your case. Those who currently believe are born of God. This is an eternal security verse. Once believing always believing.



Exactly. These are eternal security verses and have nothing to do with the point you're trying to prove.



Which supports my position.

These are eternal security passages, once believing always believing. They say nothing to your point that regeneration precedes faith.

The Holy Spirit does not teach those who are not His children about Christ and receiving Christ in a way that results in them realizing saving faith..

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 New King James Version
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Now what does the Holy Spirit teach? He teaches those whom He desires to come to Christ. And since a natural man can not receive such spiritual things of God, He is not gong to be teaching them in an effective process.
John 6:44-45 (NKJV)

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

It is somewhat of a shock to realize that being born of God ( as a newborn ) is not the finished salvation experience. It is just the beginning of our eventual believing in our hearts and then confessing Him, only then are we saved, A newborn babe has to learn as it is really a clean slate, and so also the new birth, all things are become new.They are in Christ but have not yet confessed Him, however The Holy Spirit teaching results in all being saved that God has granted-enabled to come to Christ. The new birth begins that process by placing them as in the family of God. as babes in Christ.

If you continue to believe that unregenerate men believe and follow Christ then the new birth is worthless. This is all about being 'OF GOD' being born again as the required first step.. .

The regeneration precedes the confession of faith.

 

[Calminian]

The Holy Spirit does not teach those who are not His children about Christ and receiving Christ in a way that results in them realizing saving faith.....,

Yes, He does. You're turning to rapid proof texting which is always a sign of waning arguments. None of your "proof-texts" are speaking directly to your assertion.

 

[Benjamin]

We are commanded to make our calling and election sure (confirmed), but never to cause our own predestination.

If, "All of God's way are judgment" ..."in truth"... (Deut 32:4), what is His judgment based on to which by His providence we end up predestined into possible worlds if not our LFW being the cause?

These are not good quotes to repeat.

You're welcome to your opinion, but in my opinion you need to look deeper into the meanings which distinguish between "cause and effect" and "influence and response" concerning God's providential governance of the attributes of man.

I would never frame it they way he does there.

Perhaps you are under the impression that God has pre-determined all things and have an unrealistic view of human volition?

 

[Calminian]

If, "All of God's way are judgment" ..."in truth"... (Deut 32:4), what is His judgment based on to which by His providence we end up predestined into possible worlds if not our LFW being the cause?

You're welcome to your opinion, but in my opinion you need to look deeper into the meanings which distinguish between "cause and effect" and "influence and response" concerning God's providential governance of the attributes of man.

Perhaps you are under the impression that God has pre-determined all things and have an unrealistic view of human volition?

My view is that God reckoned the faith of the ungodly and he did so under no obligation. My view is that God deserves 100% credit for the save, and 0% credit for the lost. My view is that God chose based on his foreknowledge.

My view is not that man must cause God to choose him.

 

[Yeshua1]

If, "All of God's way are judgment" ..."in truth"... (Deut 32:4), what is His judgment based on to which by His providence we end up predestined into possible worlds if not our LFW being the cause?

You're welcome to your opinion, but in my opinion you need to look deeper into the meanings which distinguish between "cause and effect" and "influence and response" concerning God's providential governance of the attributes of man.

Perhaps you are under the impression that God has pre-determined all things and have an unrealistic view of human volition?

Do we still have libertine free will then in same sense Adam had when created?